News Vintage plane crashes into crowd at Reno air races

[Ghostrider]

It is beyond silly to say "don't" go to an airshow because someone might crash. That is like saying. "Don't live within 30 miles from an airport because an aircraft might breakup on decent and kill you."

It could also be: "don't stay at home". There's a frightful number of fatal accidents happening right within one's home.

 

[Hielor]

What happened to the rule that says pilots are not supposed to plan their demonstrations with a flightpath that intersects the crowd? To me, planes circling'round pylons would violate this easily, just as those low-pass 3-way crossings would too.

This isn't a demonstration, it's a race.

 

[Zachstar]

This isn't a demonstration, it's a race.

And it does not matter anyway. When a plane loses control it can fly literally anywhere it has energy to go to.

This is a sad and horrific accident but there is virtually nothing that can be done to make it any safer without literally ruining the aspect of getting close and watching these high performance aircraft up close.

Yet, please remember folks. This is NOTHING compared to decades ago where aircraft like the Gee Bee were just the tip of the iceberg of extreme edge pushing aircraft that routinely killed pilots and spectators. Heavy research and devotion led to this age where craft are safe AND high performance.

 

[Linguofreak]

And it does not matter anyway. When a plane loses control it can fly literally anywhere it has energy to go to.

It does matter, because while it can go anywhere, places along its velocity vector at the time of the failure are especially likely. I'm not sure if keeping the stands on the inside of the course would have helped this particular accident, but it is generally a good idea.

Yet, please remember folks. This is NOTHING compared to decades ago where aircraft like the Gee Bee were just the tip of the iceberg of extreme edge pushing aircraft that routinely killed pilots and spectators. Heavy research and devotion led to this age where craft are safe AND high performance.

Well, technically the P-51 only postdates the Gee Bee by 10 years. Of course, the fact that this one survived so long means it couldn't have been too much of a death trap. (And the modifications to it postdated the Gee Bee by much more than a decade).

 

[Urwumpe]

It doesn't seem to have been edited at all. :shrug:

It could still have been just rotated by 90°, that does also not cause visible JPEG artifacts of the original image.

 

[ozone]

From latest AP report:

Questions were raised, too, about modifications made to make the plane more aerodynamic so it would go faster without a bigger engine. In a podcast uploaded to YouTube in June, Leeward said major changes were made to the plane before this year's race. He said his crew cut five feet (1.5 meters) off each wing and shortened the ailerons — the back edge of the main wings used to control balance — to 32 inches (81 centimeters), down from about 60 inches (152 centimeters).
"I know the speed. I know it'll do the speed. The systems aren't proven yet. We think they're going to be OK," Leeward said.

 

[Mister Kite]

It could still have been just rotated by 90°, that does also not cause visible JPEG artifacts of the original image.

The question still is: Where is the pilot and how come the tail wheel has been deployed.

 

[Urwumpe]

The question still is: Where is the pilot and how come the tail wheel has been deployed.

The pilot is still on-board, the canopy is not a normal P-51 canopy, the pilot is at the aft end of the glass.

No idea on the tail wheel, but a loss of the elevator tab during a race, can lead to 10+ g acceleration when the plane pitches up strongly. Such acceleration could be enough to forcefully deploy the tail wheel.

 

[Mister Kite]

when the plane pitches up strongly.

Hmm...maybe the picture was rotated 180°.

 

[MaverickSawyer]

He did, however, according to what I'm hearing, retain some degree of control (and conciousness) for long enough to make a mayday call and pull out of the race, which makes me think that he might have had some opportunity to deploy a chute if he'd had one.

The "Mayday" call came BEFORE the trim tab failed. I think that he then crossed the turbulence of the racer in front of him, causing the already overstressed trim tab to fail, causing the pitch up, leading to the chain of events that has been detailed so far.

EDIT:
I ran some numbers last night. The plane was pulling in excess of 10 Gs, more like 15.

 

[FADEC]

It is beyond silly to say "don't" go to an airshow because someone might crash. That is like saying. "Don't live within 30 miles from an airport because an aircraft might breakup on decent and kill you."

General aviation traffic does not consist of risky acrobatic maneuvers.

 

[n122vu]

One theory as to why the pilot was not visible. Again, just a theory.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/11707874...adly-nevada-air-race-crash/?playlist_id=87485

 

[MaverickSawyer]

I don't think that the Mustang has a reclining seat, but a sliding seat is a possibility. Still, the head should have been visible in the cockpit...

 

[n122vu]

I don't think that the Mustang has a reclining seat, but a sliding seat is a possibility. Still, the head should have been visible in the cockpit...

What about a broken seat, as the clip mentions? As in, breaking completely off its mounts due to the G-forces caused by the broken trim tab. Is there even enough room behind the seat for this to have been possible or even have been a problem? Asking because I've never seen a P51 up close.

 

[Urwumpe]

One theory as to why the pilot was not visible. Again, just a theory.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/11707874...adly-nevada-air-race-crash/?playlist_id=87485

The theory isn't that bad, but generally, the analysis is pretty wrong about the events. The trim tab is completely missing, what they called the trim tab is the full elevator. Next, the plane did, if at all, a high speed stall. But it rather looks like a uncontrolled flight into terrain.

Also, I am not sure how much room there is behind the seat for it to fall backwards, such a fighter plane is no A380.

At the accelerations that you have to expect there, EVERYTHING can break loose even in a new fighter plane. Not just the seat, many things including the pilot would be much closer to failure.

Also, I think the analysis is not right about the position of the pilot: During taxi, you are not in the seat, but bow a bit forward for having a better view where you are going in such a plane.

In all P-51 planes I have seen so far, the seat is at the beginning of the second third of the wing root. I have no reason to assume huge variations there because of modifications - you would have to change the full cockpit and control systems for that.

Also, the modified canopy saves weight by reducing the amount of heavy glass (likely hot formed Plexiglas, it is pretty common, but still a bit heavy), so the pilot has only as much view outside as needed for a race.

Also, the pilot was able to send a mayday BEFORE the problems really started. if he noticed the problem during the loss of the trim tab, it would have been too late to communicate. A sudden 10-15g peak is already far beyond the limits for a fighter pilot with modern hydrostatic Multi-G suits. And you can in such a fighter plane only have no g-suits or hydrostatic ones (because hydrostatic g-suits are self-contained units). If the trim tab breaks off and makes your elevator uncontrolled, you will likely instantly pass out. In the only known accidents of that type, the pilot only climbed by 9000 ft before recovering from his g-induced blackout.

I think, the accident could also have a much less technical cause. What if the pilot had a heart attack or a stroke and aborted the race? he could have send mayday because he noticed something was going badly wrong, pulled out of the race and then passed out at the wrong time. The tail wheel and the trim tab could then be also explained by the uncontrolled plane exceeding the structural limits.

Not to discriminate old people, even a 8 year old can have a heart attack. But the chance of having it during old age, while under stress and while pulling high gs, is much higher.

(Also, from thinking about it: For the pilot seat to fall BACKWARDS by breaking, the acceleration vector of the plane relative to the seat in free motion would need to point forward: The plane would need to suddenly increase its speed like a rocket. But such strong accelerations are only possible vertically, up or down - or by another plane ramming it from behind, which also didn't happen.)

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Possible Mayday cause: Elevator flutter. There was reportedly a buzzing sound that experienced fans have said was NOT from an engine. This would most definitely be reason to Mayday.

 

[Keatah]

@urwumpe - have you seen a P-51 setup for racing?

Keep in mind that there is still a lot of empty space in these older craft. They are not packed like a modern fighter. A LOT of empty space for the seat to move into.

Furthermore, the plane is a racing plane, all non-essential weight is removed. This would include removing of "wartime" equipment. And with today's electronics, everything has no doubt been replaced - leaving more open spaces.

Much of the wartime structural reinforcement was probably reallocated or eliminated entirely. We don't need 5 or 6 G's to move something. Could be just 1.2 G's once a fastener or support structure came loose.

This plane bore little resemblance to the original that rolled outta the factory in the 40's.

Also note. It is actually a trim-tab that had fallen off, not the complete elevator flap.
It is possible, with the modifications done for racing, that the seatback collapsed either downward toward the wing or back toward the tail. Probably a vector of both. And it wouldn't have to move much, just .20 meters would do it.

The pilot could have also tried slithering forward to reach the controls, and further submarined below where the canopy meets the fuselage sill. Not likely in the time frame; but still an amusing last-ditch effort.



Well, let us see what the NTSB tells us next year.

 

[Linguofreak]

Is there even enough room behind the seat for this to have been possible or even have been a problem? Asking because I've never seen a P51 up close.

I don't know. Even having seen a P-51 up close wouldn't tell you, because this was a P-51D, and stock 51D's had bubble canopies:

In the accident aircraft this had been modified:

So you would have to have inspected the accident aircraft itself to know if there was room.

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

Also note. It is actually a trim-tab that had fallen off, not the complete elevator flap.

Urwumpe was referring to the fact that the guy in that Fox clip had mistaken the complete elevator for the trim tab, and said that "part" of the trim tab was missing.

 

[MaverickSawyer]

Latest figures: 11 dead, 69 injured.
Sad, sad incident.
Already a Wikipedia page on it:
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reno_Air_Races_disaster"]Reno Air Races disaster[/ame]

 

[FADEC]

Latest figures: 11 dead, 69 injured.
Sad, sad incident.
Already a Wikipedia page on it:
Reno Air Races disaster

11 dead and 69 injured, that's quite a (sad) number. The disaster for sure will raise security questions and debates, with good reason. This might even be the end for the Reno air race like it was the case for the flight days at the Ramstein Air Base in Germany after the disaster.