Why is the speed of light the cosmic speed limit?

Fizyk

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TMac3000 said:
Never forget that the reason time appears to dilate as you approach c is because space contracts as you approach c.
Not really. Those two effects are connected and one can't exist without the other, that's true, but to say that one causes the other is a mistake.

Again let me explain that by an analogy to rotations. If you have x and y axes on a plane and rotate them, both x and y have to change. You can't have a rotation which changes x, but leaves y unchanged.

It's the same in relativity. As I tried to show in my previous posts, changing velocity is a bit like rotating in spacetime (with a "hyperbolic rotation"). This changes your time axis, but just like a regular rotation, it also has to affect the spatial part. The time dilation can be viewed as an effect of having different time axes, and Lorentz contraction as an effect of having different "spaces". So changing your velocity has to cause both of these effects - since both time and space are affected by the "rotation".
 

TMac3000

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I concede this. It is, however, true that if you were to reach the speed of light, all distances for you would shrink to zero, so you would have no space left to travel in (only time:))
 

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I concede this. It is, however, true that if you were to reach the speed of light, all distances for you would shrink to zero, so you would have no space left to travel in (only time:))

Again, not true. Due to time dilatation, you wouldn't age. From your own point of view, you wouldn't travel through time while moving from A to B. You'd get there instantaneously.
 

Rtyh-12

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I'm not the best at special relativity, but wouldn't time stop altogether if you reached c?

Edit: I got :ninja:'d for the first time! :lol:
 

Fizyk

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TMac3000 said:
I concede this. It is, however, true that if you were to reach the speed of light, all distances for you would shrink to zero, so you would have no space left to travel in (only time)
Not exactly. First, as RisingFury said, time also stops. Second, only distances in the direction of your movement shrink to 0.

Well, since you don't move with respect to yourself, we should be rather talking about the direction of movement of everything else. Except for the fact that time doesn't flow for you, so nothing moves. Or does it, since it covers 0 distance in 0 time, so velocity is 0/0=??? It's really hard to describe in casual terms :p

Actually, pretty much everything is very hard to describe in casual terms when talking about observers travelling at the speed of light. Their world is then a so-called "null hypersurface", which is a really crazy thing (imagine a rectangular cuboid with one of the dimensions equal to 0, but which is nevertheless still a cuboid - it's something like that). This causes all sorts of strange effects, one of which is that a photon, which has spin 1, can only have spin projections on its direction of movement +1 and -1 (massive spin 1 particles can also have spin projection 0).
 

TMac3000

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Instantaneous travel (as perceived by you) means you are already at whatever destination you are going to. But the universe doesn't know where you are going, so you effectively exist everywhere at once along your path of motion (according to you the traveler). This is what happens to photons. I read that in some book (I think it Brian Greene's Elegant Universe:shrug:) It's also yet another reason you can't travel at the speed of light, let alone exceed it.

So, what you are saying then is that all the space in front of you has collapsed to zero?

I don't mean to be aggravating, I just really like talking about this. Relativity is a very neat and mysterious subject to me:)
 
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Fizyk

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TMac3000 said:
So, what you are saying then is that all the space in front of you has collapsed to zero?
Yeah. In front and behind you.

TMac3000 said:
I don't mean to be aggravating, I just really like talking about this.
So do I ;)

TMac3000 said:
Something like your avatar?
No, my avatar is a hypercube, that's a 4-dimensional analog of a cube.

The point is - in spacetime there are points, which are separated by a distance of 0, but they are still not the same point. No situation like that can happen in regular metric spaces - there if the distance is 0, that means the two points are in fact the same.

Also, there is really a lot of such pairs of points. You can form curves, which have 0 length (so-called null, or lightlike, curves) or in higher dimensions - hypersurfaces, which have 0 length in one direction, but nevertheless in some sense they extend in that direction.

BTW, lightlike curves are called that because light travels along such curves (everything travelling at the speed of light does).
 

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The argument with [math]\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}[/math] in the denominator isn't bad, but it's purely mathematical and it doesn't really explain why this is in the denominator in the first place. I'll try to give an approach that is a bit more physical, but it will require a pretty long story, and it will also require a lot of math ;)

For the sake of simplicity, let's limit ourselves to a 2-dimensional spacetime - with 1 spatial dimension and 1 time dimension.

So, let's say we have 2 observers, one moving with velocity [math]v[/math] with respect to the other. Each of these observers can assign his own coordinates to events - let's say one of them has coordinates [math](t,x)[/math] and the other one has [math](t',x')[/math]. Let's also say [math](0,0)[/math] is the same event in both coordinate systems - for example, it's the moment and place where they met. We want to find out how to transform one set of coordinates to the other one.

We make one simple assumption - that spacetime is homogeneous and isotropic. This just means that no point is better than other points, and that no direction is better than other directions. As can be shown, this implies that the transformation between coordinates must be linear, or, if you prefer, it can be expressed with a matrix:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & D(v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ x \end{array} \right][/math]
Let's call the matrix [math]L(v)[/math].

Now, what can we say about A, B, C and D?

For those, who don't want to follow the maths - just skip to large bold text ;)

First, let's notice that if we change coordinates in such a way:
[math]x \to -x[/math][math]x' \to -x'[/math][math]v \to -v[/math]then it's just reversing the x axes of both observers, so:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ -x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(-v) & B(-v) \\ C(-v) & D(-v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ -x \end{array} \right][/math]
This leads us to a conclusion, that:
[math]A(-v) = A(v)[/math][math]B(-v) = -B(v)[/math][math]C(-v) = -C(v)[/math][math]D(-v) = D(v)[/math]
Now let's note that [math]L^{-1}(v) = L(-v)[/math] (converting coordinates to an observer with velocity [math]v[/math] is an opposite transformation to converting coordinates to an observer with velocity [math]-v[/math] - this is the principle of relativity). So, we get:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(-v) & B(-v) \\ C(-v) & D(-v) \end{array} \right] = \frac{1}{A(v)D(v)-B(v)C(v)} \left[ \begin{array}{cc} D(v) & -B(v) \\ -C(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math]
So:
[math]\frac{D(v)}{A(v)D(v)-B(v)C(v)} = A(-v) = A(v)[/math]and:
[math]\frac{A(v)}{A(v)D(v)-B(v)C(v)} = D(-v) = D(v)[/math]
This implies that:
[math]A(v) = \pm D(v)[/math][math]AD - BC = \pm 1[/math]
The transformations with minus change the orientation of spacetime. They are just as good as the transformations with plus, but again for the sake of simplicity let's limit ourselves to just those with plus. We get:

[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math][math]A^2 - BC = 1[/math]
Now, again some physics. Since the second observer moves with velocity [math]v[/math] with respect to the first, he satisfies:
[math]x = vt[/math]Points on this line in his coordinates will correspond to [math]x'=0[/math] (because he to himself is always at x'=0). We get:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ 0 \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ vt \end{array} \right][/math]So:
[math]0 = Ct + Avt[/math]Hence:
[math]C = -Av[/math]
So now we have:
[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ -vA(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math][math]A^2 + ABv = 1[/math][math]B = \frac{1-A^2}{Av}[/math]
[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & \frac{1-A(v)^2}{vA(v)} \\ -vA(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math]
Now comes the hardest part.

Let's call our (t,x) observer O, and our (t',x') observer O'. Now let's say we have an observer O'' with coordinates (t'',x'') moving with velocity u relative to O'. What is the velocity V of O'' relative to O?

Well... If O'' moves with u relative to O', then it satisfies [math]x' = ut'[/math]. Relative to O, it will satisfy [math]x = Vt[/math]. So:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ Vt \end{array} \right] = L(-v) \left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ ut' \end{array} \right][/math](We transform coordinates from O' to O.)

We get:
[math]t = \left( A(v) + \frac{A(v)^2-1}{vA(v)}u \right) t'[/math][math]Vt = A(v) \left( v+u \right) t'[/math]
So:
[math]V = \frac{v+u}{1 + \frac{A(v)^2-1}{A(v)^2} \frac{u}{v}}[/math]
Still following me? Now let's reverse the situation ;) O moves with -V relative to O'', and with -v relative to O'. So, it satisfies [math]x' = -vt'[/math] and [math]x'' = -Vt''[/math]. We get:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t'' \\ -Vt'' \end{array} \right] = L(u) \left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ -vt' \end{array} \right][/math](We transform from O' to O''.)

Hence:
[math]t'' = \left( A(u) + \frac{A(u)^2-1}{uA(u)}v\right) t'[/math][math]-Vt'' = -A(u)(v+u)t'[/math]
So we get:
[math]V = \frac{v+u}{1 + \frac{A(u)^2-1}{A(u)^2}\frac{v}{u}}[/math]
Okay... We have two expressions for V, which are supposed to be equal... So:
[math]\frac{A(u)^2-1}{A(u)^2}\frac{v}{u} = \frac{A(v)^2-1}{A(v)^2}\frac{u}{v}[/math]
Divide both sides by uv:
[math]\frac{A(u)^2-1}{u^2 A(u)^2} = \frac{A(v)^2-1}{v^2 A(v)^2}[/math]
Left-hand side depends only on [math]u[/math], right-hand side only on [math]v[/math]. This means they are both equal to some constant [math]\alpha[/math]:

[math]\frac{A(v)^2-1}{v^2 A(v)^2} = \alpha[/math]This gives:
[math]A(v) = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}}[/math]
So, we can write our complete transformation:
[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} & \frac{-\alpha v}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} \\ \frac{-v}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} \end{array} \right][/math]
Now, the point is - what exactly is [math]\alpha[/math]? There are two ways to go about it:

1. We know from theory of electromagnetism, that [math]c[/math] should be independent of the observer. We can plug that in and we'll get [math]\alpha = \frac{1}{c^2}[/math].

2. From this we have some law of adding velocities. We can use that to perform an experiment - measure the speed of light in water, and then the speed of light in moving water. Then we can see how the velocities of light and water add up and calculate [math]\alpha[/math]. We will again get the right result.
Actually there was a physicist, Fizeau, who performed this experiment and got results which would be consistent with special relativity - except that special relativity didn't exist yet :p

Ok, but why did I do all this? I want to show something nice. Let's introduce [math]\eta[/math] such that:

[math]v = c \tanh \eta[/math]
"tanh" is hyperbolic tangent, [math]\eta[/math] is called "rapidity". It's nice, because then:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} ct' \\ x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} \cosh \eta & -\sinh \eta \\ -\sinh \eta & \cosh \eta \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} ct \\ x \end{array} \right][/math]
Probably it reminds some of you of the 2D rotation matrix:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} x' \\ y' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} \cos \phi & -\sin \phi \\ \sin \phi & \cos \phi \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} x \\ y \end{array} \right][/math]
And quite correctly, because it behaves in a similar way. Just as rotations don't change [math](\Delta x)^2+(\Delta y)^2[/math], these "hyperbolic rotations" don't change [math](c \Delta t)^2 - (\Delta x)^2[/math]. This value can be then interpreted as a kind of "length" in the spacetime.

Ok, but what is the connection to [math]c[/math] as the speed limit? Well, imagine a body going at a velocity [math]v = \frac{\Delta x}{\Delta t} < c[/math]. Let's calculate the "length" of the path it went along:
[math]d^2 = (c \Delta t)^2 - (\Delta x)^2 = (c^2-v^2)(\Delta t)^2 > 0[/math]But this means that for every observer this will be greater than 0, because it can't change when we change the observer. So it means that always we will get [math]v<c[/math]. [math]c[/math] appears to be the speed limit.

There is one "but". We assumed, that the body moved slower than c relative to one observer and this implied that it moves slower than c relative to every observer. If we assumed that it was going faster than c for one observer (because why not, it wouldn't give a contradiction), it would appear to be going faster than c relative to every observer. So actually, the conclusion is: nothing can cross the barrier of c - but it doesn't exclude objects that are always faster than c.

I wonder if somebody will actually read this whole post :p

great post although I get zero of the math. For instance in this equation [math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & D(v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ x \end{array} \right][/math] how does the top line affect the bottom line? numerator denominator? see I am kinda clue less except for a basic understanding of most things scientific. Now as speed gets close to light the mass of an object increases so should its gravity. So should there not be a link to mass=gravity=speed. So a black hole with all its gravity should in theory have high velocity?
A part of me thinks light speed is seen in a similar manner to the speed of sound a century ago. I guess my gut feeling is faster than light travel would be unobservable so seen as impossible similar to the sonic barrier.
 

paddy2

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Why is the speed of light the speed limit? Why not 1/2c?
30 posts and no one answers the question!!!
It not that the speed of light is an arbitrary value, its that light is the most commonly, possibly only thing we can monitor which gets close to the maximum speed.

We measure running man and it gets faster, we time boat, trains, cars and they improve. We do the numbers on rockets and moons and meteors and the numbers go up. Only when we get to light do we have any thing which is truly going flat out, if light could go any faster it would.
It not that the speed of light is the limit but rather light has made it to the limit.

If the limit was higher, light would go faster.......
 

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Ok just for fun, I find somthing going really fast already.. (like a rogue planet, i'm sure that they exist in great quantities and at very high velocity relative to Earth).. I fly to it. My great grandchildren refine some more reaction mass and set off yet again... now to observe this from here on Earth could they not get traveling faster than c. relative to us? or does time dilation step in first?
My head hurts
 

jangofett287

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Time dilation and space contraction all work to ensure that no object and be observed to travel faster than c. Watch this, it may help a bit...:
Not entirely sure how to define momentum for a massless particle, given momentum is equal to mass times velocity, but there you go.
 

Matias Saibene

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So actually, the conclusion is: nothing can cross the barrier of c - but it doesn't exclude objects that are always faster than c.

Sadness. Meanwhile...
enterprise_at_warp_by_glennshatowski-d33bsy7.png

Seriously, I thought was excellent your mathematical explanation. I wish I was good at math (I'm terrible at math).

Interesting discussion, my opinion is that most likely in my country, someone breaks the barrier c (as broken and violated so many rules and laws of all kinds):facepalm:.
 

perseus

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I much prefer the idea of a "smarter than light" drive--some like the Alcubierre
What is the top speed of expansion-contraction of space-time?
Perhaps the inflationary period?, You can bring the recent discovery of gravitational waves some exprimental this information?
By expanding the space-time universe could create a new child universe?
Is this energy feedback process would be created due to the vacuum energy expasion?
Is the vacuum energy is transformed mass balancing the expansion?
Will could surf on them? What is the winning lotto numbers? :lol:
Too many questions:facepalm: Do you have answers?:cheers:
 
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TMac3000

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I wasn't specifically advocating the Alcubierre drive, although I would be okay with it. Wormholes and other incarnations of general relativity would be nice as well:)
 

Fizyk

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great post although I get zero of the math. For instance in this equation [math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & D(v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ x \end{array} \right][/math] how does the top line affect the bottom line? numerator denominator? see I am kinda clue less except for a basic understanding of most things scientific.
This is actually pretty simple. This notation (matrix notation) is just a convenient form of expressing this:
[math]t' = A(v)t + B(v)x[/math][math]x' = C(v)t + D(v)x[/math]Those two equations are exactly what the equation that you quoted is saying.
 

Urwumpe

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And also, this matrix notation is for mathematicians a very important pattern in formulas:

Everything of the form:

VectorB = MatrixAB * VectorA

is also a projection or transformation of Vector A to Vector B by the transformation described by Matrix AB.

This tells mathematicians many stories, since the old science of linear algebra knows quite many relations and implications related to such transformations.

If you write it with two linear combinations like t' = A * t + B * x, this concept gets hidden a bit and is harder to understand for a mathematician.


And why is this matrix notation and linear algebra so great? Because it all makes beautiful video games today. A modern GPU is nothing else but a large number of matrix calculators. A vector goes in, a vector goes out and what happens is mostly described by a matrix. Everything, that can not be described by a matrix costs performance. Calculating the color of a pixel? Matrix! Smoothing a surface by replacing it with interpolated triangles? MATRIX! Making spacecraft collide realistically? MOAR MATRIX!

:lol:
 
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