Why is the speed of light the cosmic speed limit?

Kaito

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A while ago, I watched a video called "E=mc2: Einsteins Big Idea". It went though the history of all the parts of the equation, and is generally an incredibly good watch. It's on youtube, I would HIGHLY suggest it.

This got me thinking about the speed of light and such. Everyone knows that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, as set out by Einstein, calculated by James Maxwell. I was researching this topic a bit, and someone had an interesting idea (from yahoo answers, of course): There is nothing that says you cannot travel faster than the speed of light, but you cannot accelerate past the speed of light. This is because of the whole energy turns into mass, thus requiring more energy to accelerate you, etc, etc.

My question is this: Why is the speed of light the speed limit? Why not 1/2c? Or 2c? What in E=mc2 says that "nope, not faster, or even equal to, the speed of light?"

I hope this is easy to understand. I understand the equation and what it means, but i'm just wondering why c is the limit, and not some other arbitrary number. All the research I've tried always spits out the equation and says "THIS IS WHY," or points me to Einstein and says "He said so, so it must be true."

Thank you,
~Kaito
 

statickid

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it's because that how fast we are going through time, and "accelerating" or changing your frame of reference, rather, borrows some of that "speed" momentarily. clearly you can see that if that was the total available then it would also be the limit you can use.

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

It's not the light itself that is important, the light is a phenomenon that allows greater insight into a process that is less tangible.
 

agentgonzo

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It's not the [math]E=mc^2[/math] that's the equation in question here, it's the relativistic mass equation:
[math]m = \frac{m_0}{1 - v^2 / c^2}[/math]
As you get your speed v to approach c, the mass increases. As v approaches c, the denominator in the equation approaches zero, so the mass increases towards infinity. This means that to to increase your speed any more, you need to use an infinite amount of energy. So essentially you cannot increase your speed at all as you would have infinite mass.
 

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"E=mc2: Einsteins Big Idea"

Actually, E = m*c^2 is just one of the implications of special relativity. The equation is actually
E = Sqrt[p^2 * c^2 + m^2 * c^4], where p is relativistic linear momentum
p = Gamma*m*v

So why can't you accelerate to the speed of light?
Gamma = 1/Sqrt[1 - (v^2 / c^2)], as you can see, when v approaches c, you get 1 / Sqrt[1 - 1], which is undefined. In this case, the Gamma increases beyond all borders, so when you plug it into the equation, it runs out you need infinite amount of energy to accelerate to the speed of light.




it's because that how fast we are going through time, and "accelerating" or changing your frame of reference, rather, borrows some of that "speed" momentarily. clearly you can see that if that was the total available then it would also be the limit you can use.

---------- Post added at 08:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

It's not the light itself that is important, the light is a phenomenon that allows greater insight into a process that is less tangible.

Could you explain this a little better, because I didn't understand anything you were trying to say...
 

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My question is this: Why is the speed of light the speed limit? Why not 1/2c? Or 2c? What in E=mc2 says that "nope, not faster, or even equal to, the speed of light?"

Wrong question. The why it is so, can't be said exactly, since it is essentially a universal constant, that was defined from the beginning of spacetime. Why it has this magnitude, can't be said, it can only be said that it must exist and how it affects us.

The speed of light is the maximum speed that you can reach by having either no resting mass (only momentum) or by infinite acceleration. Not because Einstein said so, but because the universal constant of the vacuum speed of light limits us that way and Einstein was just the first to get a good explanation of how it happens - but not on the why, there you need currently strong theology.

That is also the big big problem with the OPERA experiment. Neutrinos have (a small) momentum, but had been measured to be faster (now with much higher accuracy as before, but with the same results). But neutrinos are no gauge particle of a field (like Photons or Gravity), so it is possible that the vacuum speed of light is the speed at which fields in the universe propagate, and other phenomena are limited by it - and field-free phenomena not.
 
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Fizyk

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The argument with [math]\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}[/math] in the denominator isn't bad, but it's purely mathematical and it doesn't really explain why this is in the denominator in the first place. I'll try to give an approach that is a bit more physical, but it will require a pretty long story, and it will also require a lot of math ;)

For the sake of simplicity, let's limit ourselves to a 2-dimensional spacetime - with 1 spatial dimension and 1 time dimension.

So, let's say we have 2 observers, one moving with velocity [math]v[/math] with respect to the other. Each of these observers can assign his own coordinates to events - let's say one of them has coordinates [math](t,x)[/math] and the other one has [math](t',x')[/math]. Let's also say [math](0,0)[/math] is the same event in both coordinate systems - for example, it's the moment and place where they met. We want to find out how to transform one set of coordinates to the other one.

We make one simple assumption - that spacetime is homogeneous and isotropic. This just means that no point is better than other points, and that no direction is better than other directions. As can be shown, this implies that the transformation between coordinates must be linear, or, if you prefer, it can be expressed with a matrix:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & D(v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ x \end{array} \right][/math]
Let's call the matrix [math]L(v)[/math].

Now, what can we say about A, B, C and D?

For those, who don't want to follow the maths - just skip to large bold text ;)

First, let's notice that if we change coordinates in such a way:
[math]x \to -x[/math][math]x' \to -x'[/math][math]v \to -v[/math]then it's just reversing the x axes of both observers, so:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ -x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(-v) & B(-v) \\ C(-v) & D(-v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ -x \end{array} \right][/math]
This leads us to a conclusion, that:
[math]A(-v) = A(v)[/math][math]B(-v) = -B(v)[/math][math]C(-v) = -C(v)[/math][math]D(-v) = D(v)[/math]
Now let's note that [math]L^{-1}(v) = L(-v)[/math] (converting coordinates to an observer with velocity [math]v[/math] is an opposite transformation to converting coordinates to an observer with velocity [math]-v[/math] - this is the principle of relativity). So, we get:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(-v) & B(-v) \\ C(-v) & D(-v) \end{array} \right] = \frac{1}{A(v)D(v)-B(v)C(v)} \left[ \begin{array}{cc} D(v) & -B(v) \\ -C(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math]
So:
[math]\frac{D(v)}{A(v)D(v)-B(v)C(v)} = A(-v) = A(v)[/math]and:
[math]\frac{A(v)}{A(v)D(v)-B(v)C(v)} = D(-v) = D(v)[/math]
This implies that:
[math]A(v) = \pm D(v)[/math][math]AD - BC = \pm 1[/math]
The transformations with minus change the orientation of spacetime. They are just as good as the transformations with plus, but again for the sake of simplicity let's limit ourselves to just those with plus. We get:

[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math][math]A^2 - BC = 1[/math]
Now, again some physics. Since the second observer moves with velocity [math]v[/math] with respect to the first, he satisfies:
[math]x = vt[/math]Points on this line in his coordinates will correspond to [math]x'=0[/math] (because he to himself is always at x'=0). We get:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ 0 \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ C(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ vt \end{array} \right][/math]So:
[math]0 = Ct + Avt[/math]Hence:
[math]C = -Av[/math]
So now we have:
[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & B(v) \\ -vA(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math][math]A^2 + ABv = 1[/math][math]B = \frac{1-A^2}{Av}[/math]
[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} A(v) & \frac{1-A(v)^2}{vA(v)} \\ -vA(v) & A(v) \end{array} \right][/math]
Now comes the hardest part.

Let's call our (t,x) observer O, and our (t',x') observer O'. Now let's say we have an observer O'' with coordinates (t'',x'') moving with velocity u relative to O'. What is the velocity V of O'' relative to O?

Well... If O'' moves with u relative to O', then it satisfies [math]x' = ut'[/math]. Relative to O, it will satisfy [math]x = Vt[/math]. So:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ Vt \end{array} \right] = L(-v) \left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ ut' \end{array} \right][/math](We transform coordinates from O' to O.)

We get:
[math]t = \left( A(v) + \frac{A(v)^2-1}{vA(v)}u \right) t'[/math][math]Vt = A(v) \left( v+u \right) t'[/math]
So:
[math]V = \frac{v+u}{1 + \frac{A(v)^2-1}{A(v)^2} \frac{u}{v}}[/math]
Still following me? Now let's reverse the situation ;) O moves with -V relative to O'', and with -v relative to O'. So, it satisfies [math]x' = -vt'[/math] and [math]x'' = -Vt''[/math]. We get:

[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t'' \\ -Vt'' \end{array} \right] = L(u) \left[ \begin{array}{c} t' \\ -vt' \end{array} \right][/math](We transform from O' to O''.)

Hence:
[math]t'' = \left( A(u) + \frac{A(u)^2-1}{uA(u)}v\right) t'[/math][math]-Vt'' = -A(u)(v+u)t'[/math]
So we get:
[math]V = \frac{v+u}{1 + \frac{A(u)^2-1}{A(u)^2}\frac{v}{u}}[/math]
Okay... We have two expressions for V, which are supposed to be equal... So:
[math]\frac{A(u)^2-1}{A(u)^2}\frac{v}{u} = \frac{A(v)^2-1}{A(v)^2}\frac{u}{v}[/math]
Divide both sides by uv:
[math]\frac{A(u)^2-1}{u^2 A(u)^2} = \frac{A(v)^2-1}{v^2 A(v)^2}[/math]
Left-hand side depends only on [math]u[/math], right-hand side only on [math]v[/math]. This means they are both equal to some constant [math]\alpha[/math]:

[math]\frac{A(v)^2-1}{v^2 A(v)^2} = \alpha[/math]This gives:
[math]A(v) = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}}[/math]
So, we can write our complete transformation:
[math]L(v) = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} & \frac{-\alpha v}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} \\ \frac{-v}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\alpha v^2}} \end{array} \right][/math]
Now, the point is - what exactly is [math]\alpha[/math]? There are two ways to go about it:

1. We know from theory of electromagnetism, that [math]c[/math] should be independent of the observer. We can plug that in and we'll get [math]\alpha = \frac{1}{c^2}[/math].

2. From this we have some law of adding velocities. We can use that to perform an experiment - measure the speed of light in water, and then the speed of light in moving water. Then we can see how the velocities of light and water add up and calculate [math]\alpha[/math]. We will again get the right result.
Actually there was a physicist, Fizeau, who performed this experiment and got results which would be consistent with special relativity - except that special relativity didn't exist yet :p

Ok, but why did I do all this? I want to show something nice. Let's introduce [math]\eta[/math] such that:

[math]v = c \tanh \eta[/math]
"tanh" is hyperbolic tangent, [math]\eta[/math] is called "rapidity". It's nice, because then:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} ct' \\ x' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} \cosh \eta & -\sinh \eta \\ -\sinh \eta & \cosh \eta \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} ct \\ x \end{array} \right][/math]
Probably it reminds some of you of the 2D rotation matrix:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} x' \\ y' \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{cc} \cos \phi & -\sin \phi \\ \sin \phi & \cos \phi \end{array} \right] \left[ \begin{array}{c} x \\ y \end{array} \right][/math]
And quite correctly, because it behaves in a similar way. Just as rotations don't change [math](\Delta x)^2+(\Delta y)^2[/math], these "hyperbolic rotations" don't change [math](c \Delta t)^2 - (\Delta x)^2[/math]. This value can be then interpreted as a kind of "length" in the spacetime.

Ok, but what is the connection to [math]c[/math] as the speed limit? Well, imagine a body going at a velocity [math]v = \frac{\Delta x}{\Delta t} < c[/math]. Let's calculate the "length" of the path it went along:
[math]d^2 = (c \Delta t)^2 - (\Delta x)^2 = (c^2-v^2)(\Delta t)^2 > 0[/math]But this means that for every observer this will be greater than 0, because it can't change when we change the observer. So it means that always we will get [math]v<c[/math]. [math]c[/math] appears to be the speed limit.

There is one "but". We assumed, that the body moved slower than c relative to one observer and this implied that it moves slower than c relative to every observer. If we assumed that it was going faster than c for one observer (because why not, it wouldn't give a contradiction), it would appear to be going faster than c relative to every observer. So actually, the conclusion is: nothing can cross the barrier of c - but it doesn't exclude objects that are always faster than c.

I wonder if somebody will actually read this whole post :p
 
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Cras

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The single best principle to always keep in mind with C as the univsersal speed limit, without going into the math, is that every single object in the universe travels at a collective speed of C when the individual components of the velocity, those being the velocity components of each spacial dimension and that of the time dimension, will always equal C.

As one sits at rest in the three spacial dimensions, one travels through time at C. As one increases their spacial velocity, one decreases the velocity through time.

Thus, you cannot travel any faster THROUGH SPACE than C because once you reach the speed of light, there is no more velocity to take away from the time dimension component of your velocity.

And as mentioned, an object that is not traveling through space at C cannot accelerate to C, and an object traveling through space at C cannot slow down to a sub-light speed.

This can be explained with E=MC^2. The faster one goes, the more energy one has. The more energy one has, the more mass (vastly more mass) one has, and in short, for a non light speed traveler to accelerate to C would require infinite energy, and in Physics, Infinity is nonsense, and it nature's way of telling you that you are doing it wrong, or to knock it off.

But still read the post above, it is well done for sure.
 
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statickid

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:hesaid:

@rising fury

more or less what he's talking about, I didn't have much time, wrote that real quick before work, just as right at this moment I am also running out the door!
:lol:
 

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Hi all,
I think that there is not a lot to add after Fizyk reply to the question. But I like to add a second small aspect

Beside mass there is a second important value that change with velocity. The time flow seen by the moving probe differs from a not moving observer. ( This pheomen is symmetric if there is no acceleration between probe and observer) The probe need a duration to accelerate. Even If your main engine is rather powerful if your time frame shrinks you can not further gain speed.

In other words even if there is no strong limit of velocity You can not pass because you have not the time.

Hope to make this aspect clear even if my English is worth.

However have a nice day
 

Quick_Nick

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Fizyk: I liked that explanation. I think it needs an explanation as to why c is the constant independent of observer though.
Cras: Sounds nice, but, you don't have a velocity through time. It's always one second per second without a specific reference frame. So, to me, your explanation isn't adequate.

The way I see it is just that c is a planck length per planck time: the speed of information. And in my mind, the rest follows from this. But of course I don't have a full understanding or education on the subject.
 

Cras

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Cras: Sounds nice, but, you don't have a velocity through time. It's always one second per second without a specific reference frame. So, to me, your explanation isn't adequate.

Velocity through time from the perspective of the observer, or more specifically, the one doing the travelling, certainly does not appear to change.

But talking about lack of reference frame, then time itself becomes a very hard, if not meaningless subject.

Sit still, you hurl through time. You accelerate to faster speeds, you slow down through time. To be more specific, this change is only when viewing the accelerating traveler from a different observational vantage point, one that is not traveling at the same rate as the traveler.

To say you don't have velocity through time is skipping over a very very important part of special relativity.

And using Plank Time and lenght to define C is one witout meaning, as both the Plank Time and the Plank Length are defined with C (among other constants).
 

Fizyk

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Quick_Nick said:
Fizyk: I liked that explanation. I think it needs an explanation as to why c is the constant independent of observer though.
Thanks :)

About c independent of the observer - you can show it either theoretically, or experimentally.

Experimentally - you measure the speed of light in various reference frames and note, that it always appears to be the same.

Theoretically - Maxwell's equations predict existence of electromagnetic waves and they give c as the speed of those waves. But... the frame of reference for getting this value of the speed of EM waves isn't specified anywhere. So it appears, that this speed should be the same in every frame of reference, and indeed that is what happens.

Or if you mean how special relativity implies, that this is an invariant speed - see the value for the "length" at the end of my previous post. With v=c it would give 0, and that means it will be 0 in every frame of reference, and that means v will be equal to c in every frame of reference.

Cras said:
But talking about lack of reference frame, then time itself becomes a very hard, if not meaningless subject.
It does become meaningless, as time is just a direction in spacetime. It's just like the left direction - if I tell you that something is 2 km to the left, I didn't tell you much. I have to tell you whose left is it - my left, your left, or some other person's left? In other words, I have to specify a frame of reference.

It's exactly the same with time, except this direction doesn't depend on how you are standing, but on how you are moving. Observers at rest relative to each other have the same time direction. Observers moving relative to each other are "rotated" a bit ("rotated", because it's this hyperbolic kind of rotation) and their time axes point in slightly different directions.

Cras said:
Sit still, you hurl through time. You accelerate to faster speeds, you slow down through time.
Well, in a way yes, though there is always an observer in the background. Movement is relative to an observer, and time is also relative to an observer (as it is a direction).

But usually it is described a bit differently and the resulting "velocity through time" is quite the opposite to what you expect ;) I'll try to explain.

First, I need to introduce the notion of "proper time". It is pretty simple. If we have an observer, proper time is the time he would see on a watch on his hand. In other words, this is the time that passes for him. It is usually denoted by [math]\tau[/math]. What's interesting and worth to note, is that the proper time of an observer is the previously defined "length" of his world line (world line is the path that a body "draws" in the spacetime as time passes), or mathematically:

[math]\tau = \frac{1}{c} \int \sqrt{(cdt)^2 - dx^2} = \int \sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}} dt[/math]
By the way, if v is constant, then proper time of an observer becomes his time coordinate. Fun begins when one starts to consider accelerating observers, but let's leave that for now ;)

Now let's say we have two observers, O and O'. O as usual assigned his coordinates (t,x) to every event in the spacetime, so we have a frame of reference. O' travels with velocity v in this frame and his proper time is [math]\tau[/math].

Each event along the world line of O' has some coordinates [math](t,x)[/math], and at each of these events the watch O' has on his hand shows some time [math]\tau[/math]. This let's us write a parametric expression for the observer's world line:
[math]\left[ \begin{array}{c} t \\ x \end{array} \right] = \left[ \begin{array}{c} t(\tau) \\ x(\tau) \end{array} \right][/math]
[math]t(\tau)[/math] and [math]x(\tau)[/math] are some functions which describe how the "position" in spacetime of O' relative to O evolves as O''s proper time passes. If O' moves with constant velocity v, then:
[math]x(\tau) = vt(\tau) + const[/math]
Now, if we have such functions, we can ask how temporal and spatial coordinates of O' relative to O change with changes of O''s proper time. This is answered by the derivatives with respect to [math]\tau[/math]:

[math]u_t = \frac{dt}{d\tau}[/math][math]u_x = \frac{dx}{d\tau}[/math]
If we didn't limit ourselves to 2D spacetime, there would be 4 coordinates and 4 derivatives, which would form so-called four-velocity. Four-velocity of a body is a vector in spacetime which is tangent to the world line of this body.

Time component of this vector, [math]u_t[/math], is something that could be called "velocity through time". We can calculate it from the equation I wrote earlier:

[math]\tau = \int \limits_0^t \sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}} dt = t \sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}[/math](v is assumed to be constant; we integrate from 0 so that [math]\tau[/math] is 0 when t is 0)

[math]t(\tau) = \frac{\tau}{\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}} = \tau\gamma[/math]
[math]u_t = \frac{dt}{d\tau} = \gamma[/math]
As we can see, this "velocity through time" for a body moving with a constant velocity is just the Lorentz factor [math]\gamma = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}}}[/math] (this is actually the case also for accelerating bodies).

What's different from what Cras wrote, is that this is never less than 1. It's 1 when the body is standing still, and grows to infinity as body's velocity approaches c. This is actually pretty reasonable, as it describes ratio of "stationary time" to proper time, and we know that for a moving body times passes slower - so more "stationary time" passes for a given length of proper time, so the ratio should be greater than 1.

And so I wrote yet another huge post :D
 
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Cras

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E = m*c^2 alone does not explain it. Reason above in the posts above...

E=MC^2 is a way to explain why it becomes impossible for an object to accelearate to the speed limit. It does not explain why C is the speed limit.

@Fizyk

Another great post. World lines bring back some good memories for me. I don't think I ever had as much fun in physics than learning the concept of world lines and how it changes under acceleration, and how much it can change under extreme conditions.

:tiphat: to you.
 

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E=MC^2 is a way to explain why it becomes impossible for an object to accelearate to the speed limit.

No, it isn't a way to explain why it becomes impossible for an object to accelerate to the speed limit. It only gives the energy stored in matter.
 

Cras

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No, it isn't a way to explain why it becomes impossible for an object to accelerate to the speed limit. It only gives the energy stored in matter.

It means that Energy and Mass are equivalent, they are the same thing. More energy, means more mass. Less mass, less energy.
 

n72.75

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If you use [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_units"]Natural units.[/ame], the equation is just:

E=m
 

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Cras said:
It means that Energy and Mass are equivalent, they are the same thing. More energy, means more mass. Less mass, less energy.
I don't like the relativistic mass. It doesn't make much sense in a few different ways:

  1. As n72.75 said, relativistic mass in natural units is the same as total energy. Therefore it is just a duplicated notion - why do we need two values, energy and mass, that would mean the same thing?
  2. Relativistic mass is meaningless in collisions, the only mass that makes sense then is the rest mass. Consider two situations:

    a) We have a 100 kg ball, that hits a 1 kg ball which was at rest. What happens? Well, the small ball starts moving quite quickly, and the big ball doesn't change its movement much.

    b) We have two 1 kg balls, but now one is at rest, and the second one is travelling with [math]\gamma=100[/math], which makes its relativistic mass equal 100 kg. What happens after collision? It's easy to check, that if the fast ball stops, and the resting one starts travelling with [math]\gamma=100[/math], momentum and energy will be conserved, so this is what will happen.

    Conclusion: A 1 kg ball with relativistic mass of 100 kg doesn't behave like a 100 kg ball in collisions - it still behaves like a 1 kg ball.
  3. Even if we introduce relativistic mass, the equation [math]a=\frac{F}{m}[/math] won't hold, even though we have [math]p=mv[/math]. What happens instead, is:
    [math]a = \frac{F_\perp}{m_0 \gamma} + \frac{F_{\|}}{m_0 \gamma^3}[/math]where [math]m_0[/math] is the rest mass, [math]F_\perp[/math] is the component of the force perpendicular to the velocity, and [math]F_{\|}[/math] is the component of the force parallel to the velocity. Even if you rewrite it using the relativistic mass, you are still left with a [math]\gamma^2[/math] for the parallel component. So should we introduce "parallel mass" and "perpendicular mass"? Doesn't make much sense. I say it's better to leave it as it is ;)

So, my opinion is that it's better to leave the term "mass" for the rest mass, and use energy instead of relativistic mass. AFAIK that's also the current tendency in relativity, relativistic mass is starting to be considered an obsolete notion.
 
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TMac3000

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Never forget that the reason time appears to dilate as you approach c is because space contracts as you approach c. When you reach the speed of light, for you the universe shrinks to zero, so there is nowhere left to go.
 

N_Molson

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Nice maths performance ! *applauds* :thumbup:
 
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