Malaysian airlines aircraft "shot down", SA-11 apparently

Urwumpe

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Funnily, a Russian troll blog claims that the Su-25 can shoot aircraft down in 30000 ft altitude despite the unpressurized cockpit, because: "The German Me-262 was able to shoot down aircraft in such altitudes as well."

Now, the big question: Which allied aircraft was flying in 30000 ft during WW2? :rofl:
 

Andy44

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Compare with the B-17 Flying Fortress: 35,600 feet, according to wiki. Interesting.

---------- Post added at 05:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Also, the B-17 is notable as one of the toughest aircraft in history, able to take a literally unbelievable amount of punishment and still make it back to base. Armor notwithstanding, the Su-25 has serious competition when it comes to survivability.
 

Urwumpe

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Compare with the B-17 Flying Fortress: 35,600 feet, according to wiki. Interesting.

Yeah, but I can't find any mission reaching this ceiling in reality. The highest mission plan for a raid of Germany had 26000 ft as peak, but few raids reached this limit.

Also, without pressurization, the bomber crews would be slowly dying even with 100% oxygen supply, similar to mountain climbers in the death zone. While the record of survival is 90 hours there, the person who survived in 2006 was already hallucinating and dizzy, possibly by a cerebral edema after a some hours in that altitude.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------


Also, the B-17 is notable as one of the toughest aircraft in history, able to take a literally unbelievable amount of punishment and still make it back to base. Armor notwithstanding, the Su-25 has serious competition when it comes to survivability.

Still, it competes rather badly to the A-10C...

Kim_campbell_damage_a10.jpg
 

MaverickSawyer

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Still, it competes rather badly to the A-10C...

Kim_campbell_damage_a10.jpg

There's a Warthog on display at the Aerospace Museum of California that survived a near miss from an SA-2 over Iraq back in '91... The right wing got pretty well munched, both hydraulic circuits were severed, and the pilot flew it back to Saudi Arabia and got it down safely. They did a patch job and flew it back to the depot at McClellan AFB for full rework... And found out that the blast had bent the wing spar. Instant museum piece, sure, but hands down the most interesting part of the museum collection. There's still shrapnel holes in the cowlings and aft fuselage. :lol:
 

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Now, the big question: Which allied aircraft was flying in 30000 ft during WW2? :rofl:

30,000 ft is a bit high for the era, but not ridiculous enough to be a rhetorical question. I would say that the unarmed recon planes would be about there. German Ju-86 recon planes went much higher in fact, albeit I think that they were pressurized:
http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/the-very-high-flying-prince.html

I don't think that people realize that the engines of the era utilized very powerful compressors for forced induction. At the point where you are using exhaust gas to power a turbine to drive a compressor, you have a LOT in common with a turboshaft already. High altitude performance of the sort was very doable by mid war.

Also, the B-17 is notable as one of the toughest aircraft in history, able to take a literally unbelievable amount of punishment and still make it back to base. Armor notwithstanding, the Su-25 has serious competition when it comes to survivability.

Meh. Seems to me that the thing about the B-17 being the toughest airplane is history is a bt of propaganda. I've seen pictures of other types surviving with serious battle damage. Also, some survivor bias in that if there was a very vulnerable part of the B-17, we would never know because the planes hit there would never make it back! Finally, if it were so tough, then things like Schweinfurt-Regensburg or Black Thursday would not have happened. B-17s could be shot down down in large numbers when improper tactics were used.
 

Urwumpe

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There's a Warthog on display at the Aerospace Museum of California that survived a near miss from an SA-2 over Iraq back in '91... The right wing got pretty well munched, both hydraulic circuits were severed, and the pilot flew it back to Saudi Arabia and got it down safely. They did a patch job and flew it back to the depot at McClellan AFB for full rework... And found out that the blast had bent the wing spar. Instant museum piece, sure, but hands down the most interesting part of the museum collection. There's still shrapnel holes in the cowlings and aft fuselage. :lol:

I think I had read the story of that flight in a small book, was a pretty epic flight, with the pilot really struggling hard to keep his plane going so he must not bail out over hostile territory. AFAIR, some of the damage was also caused during the belly landing.
 

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The missile that downed a Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine in 2014 belonged to a Russian brigade, international investigators say.
For the first time, the Dutch-led team said the missile had come from a unit based in western Russia.
All 298 people on board the Boeing 777 died when it broke apart in mid-air flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-44235402
 

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Dutch prime minister Rutte is currently in Bombay but is coming back now. But this information is already known for two years. So the political games continue. Justice is still very far away.
 

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Dutch prime minister Rutte is currently in Bombay but is coming back now. But this information is already known for two years. So the political games continue. Justice is still very far away.

Let's be honest, this information has been known since the shootdown occurred.

Fun fact, in the history of airliners, Russia has shot down more airliners, by far, than any other nation.
 

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Sources report to local media that Australia and The Netherlands will soon speak with Russia about the liability for the downing of flight MH17. Diplomats, civil servants and lawyers from the three countries will meet soon. The time and location of the calls will not be announced.

In May last year, Australia and the Netherlands officially held Russia liable for the loss of flight MH17. The two western countries invited Russia to talk about liability and thus come to a solution.

It has taken a while. The Russians did not immediately respond to the invitation. In October, Russia announced its willingness to hold a discussion about liability for the collapse of flight MH17, but then also the role of Ukraine should be considered. These conversations seem to be coming now.

https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/pol...ekken-met-rusland-over-aansprakelijkheid-mh17
 

Urwumpe

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Well, could get interesting, since Ukraine is really not free of guilt there. They did not close their eastern air space after the first military plane was shot down in higher altitude. Its a rather minor guilt compared to those who pulled the trigger and those who delivered the gun... After all, we still don't know who fired the missile. We have some clues and we know the launcher - but thats incidential evidence at best. There are still at least three war criminals on the run.
 

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They did not close their eastern air space after the first military plane was shot down in higher altitude. Its a rather minor guilt..

That's why this news fuels conspiracy talk about more serious guilt. A popular one is that The Ukraine had a fighter jet in the air who was flying close to MH17 to present a target and succesfully triggererd the Russia backed seperatists to fire their BUK with the intention to down the fighter.

That would mean both countries are guilty, but the role of The Ukraine had to remain secret (EU, gas) and Russia denies to take all blame on it's own.
 

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The Ukraine had a fighter jet in the air who was flying close to MH17 to present a target
Your conspiracy sites aren't high grade enough.
I've seen satellite images of the said jet, with the jet caught in the middle of firing a missile at the Boeing.

...except the "conspiracy sites" were regular news sites, and the "satellite images" were painfully obvious photoshops.
 
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Urwumpe

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That's why this news fuels conspiracy talk about more serious guilt. A popular one is that The Ukraine had a fighter jet in the air who was flying close to MH17 to present a target and succesfully triggererd the Russia backed seperatists to fire their BUK with the intention to down the fighter.

That would mean both countries are guilty, but the role of The Ukraine had to remain secret (EU, gas) and Russia denies to take all blame on it's own.


Still, it would not have worked that way in reality - after hitting one aircraft, the military jet would have had to follow the shot down airliner in a steep dive and then manage to disappear without being seen by anybody on the ground. Nobody mentioned this for months until Russia needed a new explanation how this could have happened. If it did not follow in the dive, it would have appeared on radar and catch another missile.

And also, the missile uses command guidance - with two aircraft occupying the same spot as seen by the fire control radar, its rather a gamble which aircraft the missile will hit, if it hits one at all, more likely the command-triggered explosion will damage both aircraft - and the fighter would need to fly dangerously close to the aircraft without the airliner pilot complaining.



Really, a pretty crude theory again. But who cares about facts...
 

Marijn

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@Artlav
Can you please edit your post so it remains clear that the quote isn't mine? I wrote 'That's why this news fuels conspiracy talk.. '. Now it looks like the statement is mine. It isn't.
 

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Sure. Better now?
 

Marijn

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@Artlav, yes, thanks.

---------- Post added at 09:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

Still, it would not have worked that way in reality......
Although I find this theory of a fighter shadowing MH17 not very likely either, I do think that a dive isn't necessary to dissapear mostly unseen. Actually I think that would be a bad move. The populations of multiple villages would have known there was a jet. As soon as the launch of the BUK was detected, I think it's a much better plan for a jet to remain at the high altitude and dissapear in a direction taking advantage of layers of cirrus or haze. Who sees a small fighter jet at 10km? Perhaps it didn't care about being a second target because it knew it could avoid it anyway.

There was speak about the BUK being an incomplete system without a separate radar module verhicle, therefore limiting it's capability. I don't know how these systems look from the inside and how advanced they are. But they need to be operated by these separatists. And I know what they look like.

My thoughts are that the settings of the incomplete BUK were left on it's defaults, in which it targets the most obvious target. MH17 was circumnavigating a bad weather area. It's weather radar in the nose would have presented an ernormous obvious target to the BUK outshining any other possible target.

---------- Post added at 10:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------

Problem also is that the Dutch cabinet dismissed The Ukraine as a possible suspect right from the beginning. This raises questions about the credibility of the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) and their conclusions, consisting of Dutch, Australian, Belgian, Malaysian AND the now possible suspect Ukraine, who even has a veto in the criminal investigation.
 
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Urwumpe

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Although I find this theory of a fighter shadowing MH17 not very likely either, I do think that a dive isn't necessary to dissapear mostly unseen. Actually I think that would be a bad move. The populations of multiple villages would have known there was a jet. As soon as the launch of the BUK was detected, I think it's a much better plan for a jet to remain at the high altitude and dissapear in a direction taking advantage of layers of cirrus or haze. Who sees a small fighter jet at 10km? Perhaps it didn't care about being a second target because it knew it could avoid it anyway.


Again, this would only work visually and not too good. And not at all on radar.



And also, remember the big caveeat of the plan: It would be a suicide mission. The explosion radius of the Buk should be about as large or larger as the size of the radar cell for hitting a target. The fighter would be caught





There was speak about the BUK being an incomplete system without a separate radar module verhicle, therefore limiting it's capability. I don't know how these systems look from the inside and how advanced they are. But they need to be operated by these separatists. And I know what they look like.


Inside_of_a_Buk-SAM_%28cropped%29.jpg



Thats what it should look like. Nothing too unexpected there at first glance.



You can make a few assumptions there. First of all, the general layout of the radar systems is pretty constant since the 1950s. Technology maybe advances but the core functions remained the same.



It lacks a secondary radar - that is usually installed in the battery fire control vessel. So, that could explain why even a skilled operator could not know that he fires at a civilian target, he does not have transponder data. Also, it uses mechanical radar, so the radar information isn't as accurate as modern systems can. Since it is a TELAR, it also does not need target identification systems. It could sure tell an airliner from a small fighter by the comparing the strength of the return impulse on a mechanic indicator.



It has no classic PPI screen like ATC radar uses. It lacks the radar for those. Instead it likely is an B-scope. Other russian radar systems before the Buk already used those as primary display. This means: It shows the small sector that the fire control radar can scan and maybe rotates the view with the rotation of the launcher.



The smaller scope on the right should be an E-scope, providing the altitude data.



Finding a aircraft at a long distance that way is rather cumbersome, since the fire control radar only sees a very small sector of the sky. Without spotters telling you coarse direction and distance, you could be sending radar signals to half the NATO without seeing anything for a day.



If it had been visual spotters on the ground providing the data, they knew it was an airliner. If they had an external search radar (not integrated to the Buk system), they should at least have had the transponder data.



It is possible, that the Buk operator wanted to aim at a military target at a similar direction of the airliner and simply found the airliner as bigger target first. Remember, its a fire control radar, that only scans a very small sector of the sky in front of it. It could track the airliner without even knowing that the correct target is just a few degrees outside its radar display.



Still, it would be a criminal case of negligence, if the operator did not check his tracking data to the reported sighting of the military aircraft before firing. Especially he should have been aware that he is aiming at a much larger target than as he was expecting.


It would then also not be the guilt of the Ukrainian military, since they had been far away from the airliner and could only have prevented it by not flying at all.





My thoughts are that the settings of the incomplete BUK were left on it's defaults, in which it targets the most obvious target. MH17 was circumnavigating a bad weather area. It's weather radar in the nose would have presented an ernormous obvious target to the BUK outshining any other possible target.


Not at all - the large engines are usually the best radar reflectors. Civilian aircraft are huge radar reflectors.



Still, you could assume that having civilian traffic in the area as well allowed for hiding military aircraft among it. Sure one good reason for not closing the airspace. But then, since the Russians also read the NOTAMs, it should have been clear that firing at any vessel above 32000 ft means possibly firing at a civilian aircraft and should have been part of their rules of engagement.



And if I remember correctly - there was no bad weather in the region that day. The first pictures of the crash showed rather calm weather.
 

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If it did not follow in the dive, it would have appeared on radar and catch another missile.
The other way around is much more likely imho. It's the BUK launcher who reveals it's position after launching the first missile, turning itself into a sitting duck with an cross-hair painted over it. They know that jets are never alone. I am pretty sure it's common procedure for a BUK crew to move, hide and disguise themselves as fast as possible after firing and not trying to be a hero by taking time to look for a second target.

It would be a suicide mission
I don't see why that has to be the case. The jet would have had all the advantages a suprise attacker has. They would have prepared this mission thoroughly, perhaps even awaiting the best opportunity during longer periods of time. Besides that, we have no idea what type this hypothetical jet would be, let alone what options it's countermeasures would include. I don't think the jet was picked up by the less-advanced BUK radar of the launch vehicle at any time. They just had to excite the separatists by tricking them into a trigger-happy mode, setting the stage for this incident to happen by luring them into the trap of not properly confirming their target. A phone call of someone who saw of even only heard the jet in the area could already have done the job. There is no need for the BUK to have an actual lock on the jet at any time to pull this scenario off. So it never had to come even close to MH17. Rumour of enemy figher jet activity in the area is enough.

Imagine being a BUK crewmember. Still euphoric for the downing of the cargo plane, but also scared and anxious like any human is in a war situation. Tired, perhaps a bit hang-over. You are on the lookout for another big cargo plane, you might have seen the first glimpses on the radar. And then suddenly there's rumour of enemy fighters in your area. Perhaps you can even hear the jet in the distance. Then the BUK systems light up, alarms start to sound and it confirms a lock. How long do you wait before you push the button?

This is the information age. Armies employ psychologists. The attacker would probably know how many bottles of wodka were openend the night before. They also know all capabilities and deficiences of the BUK system in all it's configurations and were perfectly able to calculate the odds for this incident to happen.

And if I remember correctly - there was no bad weather in the region that day. The first pictures of the crash showed rather calm weather.
Better weather is exactly what you would expect when you diverted the bad area. When it was shot down, MH17 was many miles north of the flight paths it had used on previous days to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam's Schiphol airport. This is suggested by Nico Voorbach, a KLM pilot who flew the same journey. Now he has a director seat at CANSO in Canada dealing with ICAO affairs. I don't think he spreads unverified rumours. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/19/mh17-changing-course-storms-pilot

Anyway. The guilt of Ukraine seems to be bigger than not closing their airspace. So the questions remain and justice is nowhere in sight for many families who still do not know why their relatives were murdered and by whom.
 
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