News Germanwings Flight 4U9525 (Airbus A320) crash in Southern France (24 March 2015)

SolarLiner

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Nowadays it's more because it's smaller and has SSD inside. AND the SSD's chips are configured in an interleaved fashion so that if some get damaged the data is on the remaining chips in its entirety.

The A320 was delivered in 1991 - SSD weren't even a thing. Hell back in those days floppy disks ruled the (electronic) world of storage. So unless the BBs were changed for newer models, those used tape as storage.
National TV news described the CVR as "damaged but readable".
 

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So unless the BBs were changed for newer models, those used tape as storage.

Had been updated. BBs have only a limited time that you are allowed to use it in an aircraft, before you need to replace them and send them back to the factory or scrap them.
 

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The first action (Altitude 2 turns and pull) initiates an open descent mode by pulling, still no idea about the two turns.
The second is different.... pulling engages the HDG mode, but the two turns are still unknown to me.

Pulling the altitude, heading and speed knobs switches from managed to select mode. Push = managed by the flight management systems. Pull = pilot selection via the flight control unit on the glareshield.

Turning the knobs two times before pulling is airline specific. Depending on which checklist you got. Some checklists only say "turn and pull". Actually you don't need to turn them at all before pulling them afaik.
 

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One more advantage of solid state FDRs and CVRs over their tape counterparts:

Tape versions need bench tests of the magnetic tape at regular intervals, this is not necessary with solid state memory, the black box does not need to be disassembled.
 

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The A320 was delivered in 1991 - SSD weren't even a thing. Hell back in those days floppy disks ruled the (electronic) world of storage. So unless the BBs were changed for newer models, those used tape as storage.

The only thing of an airliner which actually remains the same for decades is the hull/structure and some mechanical stuff. Lots of interior stuff on an airplane is being replaced from time to time. Not only seats, galleys etc. but also new electronic equipment like the DFDRs, cockpit displays, new software etc. Such airplanes don't really age. After a D-Check you can expect to actually get a "new" airplane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_maintenance_checks#D_check

One good and visible example are the CRT displays in the cockpit. When the A330 and A320 entered service they were equipped with CRT displays. Today it is LCD screens. You can tell the difference by the shape of the displays.

A320 with CRT displays:
Airbus_A320-214_Vueling_EC-HHA_cockpit_5508849819.jpg


A319 with LCD displays:
Airbus-319-cockpit.jpg


D-Check:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yHtfGH0nI
 

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3400g x 6.5 milliseconds - that's a change in speed of about 217 m/s or 420 knots over that time period.

217 m/s x 0.5 x 6.5 milliseconds = a stopping distance of about 0.7 metres.

So actually, the craft hitting a solid near-vertical cliff at the speed indicated by those trackers is getting pretty close to the limit of those boxes. Hopefully we'll find out soon...
 

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I just investigated a bit myself and I discovered some facts to check my own theory...:

- The nuclear power plants Creys-Malville and Bugey were targets of some illegal UAV observations (Nobody knows who controlled them) ~ October 2014

- The accident happened "near" this power plants
- A fighter took off to check the situation of the airbus after contact was lost
- Some (not serious) sources spoke about an explosion and "white smoke"

I don't want to speculate...
But is it allowed to shut down a plane in France if its high jacked?
And I ask me how can a flight recorder be pushed outside its case???

I don't belive in this theory but it's a bit confusing I hope we will get results soon :-(
 
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dman

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Speculation now is a depressurization incident (think Payne Stewart/Helios Air crashes)

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash"]1999 South Dakota Learjet crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522"]Helios Airways Flight 522 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

At 38,000 ft have only 20 - 30 sec before black out from lack of oxygen

If crew were disabled by lack of O2 could account for lack of communication from plane
during its descent
 

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3400g x 6.5 milliseconds - that's a change in speed of about 217 m/s or 420 knots over that time period.

217 m/s x 0.5 x 6.5 milliseconds = a stopping distance of about 0.7 metres.

So actually, the craft hitting a solid near-vertical cliff at the speed indicated by those trackers is getting pretty close to the limit of those boxes. Hopefully we'll find out soon...

Point 1 - The 3400g thing is the minimum its required to survive to get certified, there is usually a healthy safety margin designed in.

Point 2 - The recorders are mounted in the tail of the aircraft, even with the energy involved with a crash like this, the airframe would have acted like a crumple zone, reducing the declaration the CVR/CDR would experience.

Point 3 - Jernalists in general (there are exceptions) and anchors in particular are incapable of reporting facts correctly, garbled misinformed sensationalised they can do quite well.
 

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[...]
Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter.“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.”
He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”
[...]


Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/w...t-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

They made a mistake after 9/11: There MUST be a rule if they have doors which can not be opened from outside, then ALWAYS two persons must stay in the cockpit...
Because what happent the pilot who is still in the cockpit lose consciousness e.g.?
The rule to have two pilots in a cockpit was made to prevent such disaster situations!
But after 9/11, it works only if both pilots are in the cockpit!

OR it must be possible to open the door from outsite with a code only known by the pilots or so...
Or even better: There must be a "deadman's handle" inside the cockpit to keep the door locked while one pilot is out of the cockpit...

I think this could also explain the disaster of MH370 and maybe more...

Since Apollo 1, we should know that it MUST be possible to open the door!
 
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Artlav

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What if he waited for another pilot to get out of the seat, then pushed the stick hard?
...or waited for the second pilot to go out of the cockpit, then locked the door and flown the plane into the ground...
That sounds like a fairly straightforward way of suicide.

Or it could have been a seizure of some sort - there are known cases of pilots having seizures in flight.
How strict are the pre-flight medical checks on airline pilots?
Would a brain tumour or near-stroke condition be detected?
 

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...or waited for the second pilot to go out of the cockpit, then locked the door and flown the plane into the ground...
That sounds like a fairly straightforward way of suicide.


Or it could have been a seizure of some sort - there are known cases of pilots having seizures in flight.
How strict are the pre-flight medical checks on airline pilots?
Would a brain tumour or near-stroke condition be detected?

Already happened on a Embraer 190 crash in Africa in 2013: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20131129-0

Let's hope this is not the case here though (the FDR would be the key to check this)...and even if the report is true I think the rate of descent really weakens the suicide case and points towards the pilot in the cockpit being incapacitated. However if so why didn't a flight attendant went into the cockpit to "guard the door" in this case, as is the procedure in the US? :hmm:
 
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DeskOrbinaut

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How strict are the pre-flight medical checks on airline pilots? Would a brain tumour or near-stroke condition be detected?

Medical checks for class 1 are done once a year until the age of 59 and every 6 months 60+. These checks include the cardiovascular system (ECG, lung function etc.), eyes (not only visual acuity but also eye muscle activity and corneo-retinal standing potential), ears (audiogram & pure-tone audiometry and condition of the drumhead), your general physical appearance and condition, blood test and urine test. If it's your first check they want to know if you have allergies and ask for several things like sleep apnea and medical records of your family.

I think it is unlikely that a brain tumor would be detected as long as it doesn't cause symptoms to your eyes or ears or doesn't cause vertigo etc. Near-stroke condition? Depends on the cause and location I think. But might also be hard to detect if you don't suffer from hypertension for example.

---------- Post added at 01:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 AM ----------

Regarding the cockpit door:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

I think that pilot suicide and nuclear power plant attack theories are utter nonsense. No communication, no emergency squawk, no heading change, and a linear descent right into a hillside = the cockpit crew was incapacitated very likely.

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------

Speculation now is a depressurization incident (think Payne Stewart/Helios Air crashes)

1999 South Dakota Learjet crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Helios Airways Flight 522 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At 38,000 ft have only 20 - 30 sec before black out from lack of oxygen

If crew were disabled by lack of O2 could account for lack of communication from plane during its descent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Efvl6AwILo
 

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Medical checks for class 1 are done once a year until the age of 59 and every 6 months 60+. These checks include the cardiovascular system (ECG, lung function etc.), eyes (not only visual acuity but also eye muscle activity and corneo-retinal standing potential), ears (audiogram & pure-tone audiometry and condition of the drumhead), your general physical appearance and condition, blood test and urine test. If it's your first check they want to know if you have allergies and ask for several things like sleep apnea and medical records of your family.

I think it is unlikely that a brain tumor would be detected as long as it doesn't cause symptoms to your eyes or ears or doesn't cause vertigo etc. Near-stroke condition? Depends on the cause and location I think. But might also be hard to detect if you don't suffer from hypertension for example.

---------- Post added at 01:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 AM ----------

Regarding the cockpit door:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

I think that pilot suicide and nuclear power plant attack theories are utter nonsense. No communication, no emergency squawk, no heading change, and a linear descent right into a hillside = the cockpit crew was incapacitated very likely.

---------- Post added at 01:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:34 AM ----------



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Efvl6AwILo

I was going for mechanical failure too, but what the NYT reported makes me queasy. Because I cannot for the life of me find a plausible scenario where one pilot walks out to take a leak and everything is fine and then when he comes back the door is locked, he can't get in and the plane starts descending at 3000 ft/min. Am I supposed to believe that in that time, the co-pilot had a heart attack or a brain aneurism and fell against the column or something?
 
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DeskOrbinaut

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Already happened on a Embraer 190 crash in Africa in 2013: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20131129-0

They recovered the DFDR and CVR, read the data, but there is still no final report. And from what has been presented in the preliminary report more than one year ago/30 days after the crash I don't see a "clear intention to crash the jet".

Most pilot suicide claims are controversial and the corresponding countries are not really known for best aviation standards, administrative work and information policy.

---------- Post added at 03:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 AM ----------

I was going for mechanical failure too, but what the NYT reported makes me queasy. Because I cannot for the life of me find a plausible scenario where one pilot walks out to take a leak and everything is fine and then when he comes back the door is locked, he can't get in and the plane starts descending at 3000 ft/min. Am I supposed to believe that in that time, the co-pilot had a heart attack or a brain aneurism and fell against the column or something?

The A320 has no control columns. It has side sticks.

I don't believe the report of the NYT. It's too early to make such conclusions. And it also doesn't make sense at all. "Hey, my first officer is taking a leak. Perfect moment to lock the door, commence a descent and finally end it all right now and right here."

Bullsh...

German pilots are not only well trained, but are very decent persons (by selection) who love their job and their life. It's like a buddy, a person you would trust immediately when you see him/her and talk to him/her. Standards in Germany a rather high. Especially in case of Lufthansa and its partners. They have certain criteria. It's not just "we need pilots so we just chose everyone who has a valid licence" (some small airlines in certain other countries of the globe do so...).

Examples for what I mean (with subtitles)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFPEVu4eAsg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUcPRD9LBc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi8Bx34fFlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmhol3LmYvw
 
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Siliconaut

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They recovered the DFDR and CVR, read the data, but there is still no final report. And from what has been presented in the preliminary report more than one year ago/30 days after the crash I don't see a "clear intention to crash the jet".

Most pilot suicide claims are controversial and the corresponding countries are not really known for best aviation standards, administrative work and information policy.

---------- Post added at 03:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:44 AM ----------



The A320 has no control columns. It has side sticks.

I don't believe the report of the NYT. It's too early to make such conclusions. And it also doesn't make sense at all. "Hey, my first officer is taking a leak. Perfect moment to lock the door, commence a descent and finally end it all right now and right here."

Bullsh...

German pilots are not only well trained, but are very descent persons (by selection) who love their job and their life. It's like a buddy, a person you would trust immediately when you see him/her and talk to him/her. Standards in Germany a rather high. Especially in case of Lufthansa and its partners. They have certain criteria. It's not just "we need pilots so we just chose everyone who has a valid licence" (some small airlines in certain other countries of the globe do so...).

Examples for what I mean (with subtitles)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFPEVu4eAsg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpUcPRD9LBc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi8Bx34fFlM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmhol3LmYvw

Man, with the way people these days are one day sane and the next a radical jihadist. I wouldn't discount a previously exemplary pilot suddenly going jihad. I mean we had an Army psychologist go on jihad shooting spree without warning.. and he wasn't some buck private he was a major. This was a guy who interacted with soliders closely and intimately on a daily basis yet had no problems at all shooting them dead.

I work with a Pakistani guy who is the friendliest guy, you would never dream anything off about him. Good looking, hard worker.. but when a CNN report showed yemen falling to ISIS aligned forces he made it quite clear that he was cheering for the caliphate. I hope and keep and open mind that it was failure, but I wouldn't be discounting some foul play here... and given the sensitivity of the German government to its muslim population, I have no doubts that maybe a muslim or two go fast tracked in as an outreach measure.
 
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DeskOrbinaut

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Man, with the way people these days are one day sane and the next a radical jihadist. I wouldn't discount a previously exemplary pilot suddenly going jihad. I mean we had an Army psychologist go on jihad shooting spree without warning.. and he wasn't some buck private he was a major. This was a guy who interacted with soliders closely and intimately on a daily basis yet had no problems at all shooting them dead.

I work with a Pakistani guy who is the friendliest guy, you would never dream anything off about him. Good looking, hard worker.. but when a CNN report showed yemen falling to ISIS aligned forces he made it quite clear that he was cheering for the caliphate. I hope and keep and open mind that it was failure, but I wouldn't be discounting some foul play here.

Most jihadists share a few noticeable things in common, at least in Germany: not really well educated, unsuccessful in the working life and in the society.

You can be sure that you won't find a person in a Lufthansa cockpit susceptible to islamism. Because there aren't people from different cultures in airplane cockpits with Lufthansa. Just like former chief pilot Juergen Raps explained in the fourth video I posted above: crews should consist of people from the same cultural circle. Don't mix it. That's one thing. Lufthansa also chooses persons which go well with the company. They're not only looking for piloting qualification, but for a certain character type.

Just think of space flight: the chance that you will find a jihadist in an astronaut corps is more than rather low ;)
 

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Most jihadists share a few noticeable things in common, at least in Germany: not really well educated, unsuccessful in the working life and in the society.

You can be sure that you won't find a person in a Lufthansa cockpit susceptible to islamism. Because there aren't people from different cultures in airplane cockpits with Lufthansa. Just like former chief pilot Juergen Raps explained in the fourth video I posted above: crews should consist of people from the same cultural circle. Don't mix it. That's one thing. Lufthansa also chooses persons which go well with the company. They're not only looking for piloting qualification, but for a certain character type.

Just think of space flight: the chance that you will find a jihadist in an astronaut corps is more than rather low ;)

I was at work a little bit ago so I didn't get a chance to watch the movies, so thank you for clearing that up. In America an airline admitting that would be instantly shut down with protesters. I see the Germans prefer to have at least a little common sense.

It is maddening, because of course these investigations have to be kept secret despite the pressure of internet denizens like this forum that is aerospace everything related.
 

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No official word from the investigators, but unofficial sources say one of the pilots was locked out of the cockpit.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32062278

If that turns out to be true, medical incapacitation is looking like a likely cause. Personally I don't consider suicide a realistic scenario, mainly because it looks like the plane stayed in normal law during the descent.
 
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