News Germanwings Flight 4U9525 (Airbus A320) crash in Southern France (24 March 2015)

[Urwumpe]

Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/w...t-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

I wait for the denial, because the AFP source is no official publication of the BAE. The BAE has still not confirmed such rumors - and I doubt they will change their schedules just because the NYT goes wild.

Especially it is strange that the captain leaves the cockpit already 30 minutes after take-off on a two hour flight.

Right now the media here is also going insane because the co-pilot "only" had 600 hours of flight experience.

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 AM ----------

If that turns out to be true, medical incapacitation is looking like a likely cause. Personally I don't consider suicide a realistic scenario, mainly because it looks like the plane stayed in normal law during the descent.

Does not work that way.

From the cabin, its possible to unlock the door by entering a seven digit code - this then activates a buzzer in the cockpit, depending on the kind of entrance requested, there are then two options:

Routine: buzzer for a short time, door must be unlocked by person in cockpit.
Emergency: Buzzer stays on for 15-120 seconds, if entrance is not actively refused, the door gets unlocked.

The person inside the cockpit has the option to actively refuse any entrance to the cockpit. This then locks the door from outside for 5 - 20 minutes, depending on airline.

The door automatically unlocks on a loss of cockpit pressure. (So, if you want to get into the cockpit, blow a hole into the fuselage )

 

[C3PO]

Does not work that way.

This one explains it quite well:

[/COLOR]Regarding the cockpit door:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

However is it confirmed that this plane had this door system installed, or do some older planes have other systems? If the CVR recording is intact the buzzer would be audible, so that should be fairly easy for the investigators to rule in/out.

 

[Urwumpe]

However is it confirmed that this plane had this door system installed, or do some older planes have other systems? If the CVR recording is intact the buzzer would be audible, so that should be fairly easy for the investigators to rule in/out.

Yes. Such doors had become mandatory in Lufthansa after 9/11 and had been quickly installed during regular maintenance.

Alone that the NYT articles speaks explicitly about the captain knocking on the door and knocking louder on the door is a strong warning to me that somebody without aircraft knowledge is writing fiction there.

 

[TachyonDriver]

Right now the media here is also going insane because the co-pilot "only" had 600 hours of flight experience.

Is that total or 600 hours in large, multi turbine engine aircraft? ......

 

[Urwumpe]

Is that total or 600 hours in large, multi turbine engine aircraft? ......

Yes, 630 hours since he transferred from Lufthansa Training Bremen to Germanwings in 2013.

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------

The next press conference by the prosecutor of Marseille will take place in 30 minutes, then we will know more.

The NYT story reads like a perfect citation of an earlier accident, in which the captain committed suicide with the plane and killed 33 passengers, while the co-pilot was locked out.

---------- Post added at 12:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

The French official position on the rumors by the international media from this morning:

http://www.bfmtv.com/societe/crash-...avec-reserve-met-en-garde-troadec-871684.html

---------- Post added at 12:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 PM ----------

The prosecutor of Düsseldorf has confirmed: Only one pilot in the cockpit.

 

[fort]

http://www.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/live-video/

in french

The general attorney has confirmed: Only one pilot in the cockpit.

yes.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

Right now the media here is also going insane because the co-pilot "only" had 600 hours of flight experience.

Today I don't read newspapers because it's going really insane. Lots of articles from journalists who don't have a clue but exploit every single report from everywhere and everybody just to generate as much clicks and viewer as possible. They report actually nothing but only rumors and speculation.

 

[Urwumpe]

The German version of the events, as told by the prosecution of Düsseldorf:

There is a normal conversation in German language, sounds of a seat getting pushed back and the sound of a door opening and closing. Then there is a knocking against the door, but no communication at all.

According to the French, the co-pilot initiated the descent and was alive and breathing normally on the CVR.

There had been no reaction to commands by the ATC.

Before the final impact, an initial smaller collision had been heard. Also, there had been warnings by the GPWS.

In summary: The co-pilot did it.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

In summary: The co-pilot did it.

Of course...

Thank god it was not a technical problem but a pilot suicide, and that we know it already 2 days later.

 

[Urwumpe]

The passengers also did not notice the danger until shortly before impact, screams had only been heard when the plane was almost between the mountain tops.

 

[jarmonik]

From the cabin, its possible to unlock the door by entering a seven digit code - this then activates a buzzer in the cockpit, depending on the kind of entrance requested, there are then two options:

Emergency: Buzzer stays on for 15-120 seconds, if entrance is not actively refused, the door gets unlocked.

So, what will happen if the person alive behind the door does not actually remember the code or does not know the code or the code is not valid on that plane. This reminds me of how easily a person can forget his own phone number if asked suddenly.

Does the extra security make the planes safer I wonder ?

 

[Urwumpe]

So, what will happen if the person alive behind the door does not actually remember the code or does not know the code or the code is not valid on that plane. This reminds me of how easily a person can forget his own phone number if asked suddenly.

Does the extra security make the planes safer I wonder ?

There is a very good article by the Austrian flight magazine on that topic. They think the door system makes planes less safe than before.

http://www.austrianwings.info/2014/...ren-notwendigkeit-oder-gar-sicherheitsrisiko/

 

[C3PO]

Well well well. I was completely wrong on that one. At least I got the part about the CVR right. I didn't think they would announce it this quickly.

(So, if you want to get into the cockpit, blow a hole into the fuselage )

Too bad that the captain didn't realize that. At least not in time.

 

[kamaz]

"This action on the altitude controls can only be deliberate."

He added: "The most plausible interpretation is that the co-pilot through a voluntary act had refused to open the cabin door to let the captain in. He pushed the button to trigger the aircraft to lose altitude. He operated this button for a reason we don't know yet, but it appears that the reason was to destroy this plane."

Mr Robin said that air traffic controllers made repeated attempts to contact the aircraft, but to no avail.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

The passengers also did not notice the danger until shortly before impact, screams had only been heard when the plane was almost between the mountain tops.

So they just assumed it is a absolutely normal procedure that the pilot + flight attendants try to kick in the cockpit door while the airplane is in descent above moutnains...

Sorry, but for now (2 days +) I don't believe that story.

---------- Post added at 12:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------

So, what will happen if the person alive behind the door does not actually remember the code or does not know the code or the code is not valid on that plane.

The code doesn't open the door anyway. It's just for identification. In case a pilot just forgot the number he can call the other pilot via the interphone system.

 

[Urwumpe]

So they just assumed it is a absolutely normal procedure that the pilot + flight attendants try to kick in the cockpit door while the airplane is in descent above moutnains...

Nobody is heard on the CVR trying to kick in the cockpit door. Also you don't always see the cockpit door as passenger, it can be behind a curtain.

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

Nobody is heard on the CVR trying to kick in the cockpit door. Also you don't always see the cockpit door as passenger, it can be behind a curtain.

Yes. Curtains are used to cover the aisle inbetween galleys (and there is a front galley). But the curtain is no sound barrier at all. If people try to get into the cockpit not just by quietly knocking on it, then passengers in the rows next to it will become aware that something is going on. Rumors will spread to the rear of the cabin quickly.

There are reports that one pilot and members of the cabin crew tried to enter the cockpit by kicking it in. But I don't believe any of it for now.

 

[Urwumpe]

The next press conference will be by Germanwings on 14:30 local time (in about 40 minutes). It is expected that they will publish more background information on the co-pilot in that PC.

---------- Post added at 01:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

There are reports that one pilot and members of the cabin crew tried to enter the cockpit by kicking it in. But I don't believe any of it for now.

Yes. AFP fabricated it this morning, as reaction to earlier rumors of only one pilot being in the cockpit during the crash.

But their story differs to the events as told by both the German and the French prosecution in parallel events later.

It is actually almost exactly telling the events of another pilot suicide, which happened some years ago.

The German minister of Interior has also confirmed again, that the co-pilot has no terrorism background or any relation to terror groups. He was identified as German citizen during the French press conference.

 

[garyw]

Nobody is heard on the CVR trying to kick in the cockpit door. Also you don't always see the cockpit door as passenger, it can be behind a curtain.

Really?

From the BBC:

Mr Robin said there was "absolute silence in the cockpit" as the pilot fought to re-enter it.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587

 

[DeskOrbinaut]

It is actually almost exactly telling the events of another pilot suicide, which happened some years ago.

And that's the problem I have with such stories. I'm always sceptical regarding pilot-suicide (and also error) claims. Especially in certain regions on the planet. They are mostly controversial for reason.

I refuse to believe that a German airline pilot flying for a Lufthansa associated company commits suicide by using an airliner loaded with 150 human beings. Simply because I know the standards for German airlines and their requirements. And you will find some pilots at Lufthansa and other German airlines who will not believe the story for sure.