Have I been going about my space program all wrong for all this time?

Loru

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I plan to start one man VSA/orbiter project as soon as I finish few remaining add-ons in my queue.

Since I want reasonable amount of realism I'll be using:

Themis-A for satelites (mostly TDRS class but in geostationary orbit 90 degrees apart), smaller station modules or really small BEO missions.

HCLV Hyperion for large modules (I want to make some station modules in 80-100 ton range which allow bigger station with less launches and on-orbit operations - station will be in ecliptic plane), direct moon missions, and transport missions for future projects (on orbit assembly of Mars mission).

Starchaser Shuttle as crew ferry and construction assist.
 

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I plan to start one man VSA/orbiter project as soon as I finish few remaining add-ons in my queue.

Since I want reasonable amount of realism I'll be using:

Themis-A for satelites (mostly TDRS class but in geostationary orbit 90 degrees apart), smaller station modules or really small BEO missions.

HCLV Hyperion for large modules (I want to make some station modules in 80-100 ton range which allow bigger station with less launches and on-orbit operations - station will be in ecliptic plane), direct moon missions, and transport missions for future projects (on orbit assembly of Mars mission).

Starchaser Shuttle as crew ferry and construction assist.

There's another one man VSA in line to buy your stuff :thumbup:
 

Loru

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Ok. There are few points I agree in this article, however I at estimate at least twice launch rate for HCLV that stated in article.

Also without changes changes in program (opposite to real life politics) I can keep up with the launch and station assembly plan. Of course not all modules will be that large but for smaller ones I can still use Themis-A.

As stated in my previous post I want it to be reasonably realistic so don't expect from me full budget breakdown (I do it at work so no way I'll be doing it in orbiter).
 

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When I was developing the M-II, I came across this quote by Elon Musk:

Elon Musk said:
Some of what we’ve done is really just common sense — for example, using the same propellant in the upper and lower stages means that operationally, you only need to have one set of fuel tanks. If you can imagine a situation where you have a kerosene first stage, hydrogen upper stage, and solid rocket side boosters, you’ve just tripled your cost right there.

I wanted it to look like the H-IIA so much, that I decided to go with the LOX/Kerosene 1st stage (to differentiate it from the H-IIA) + LOX/LH2 2nd stage + monolithic solid boosters (My justification was to have commonality with Negi-5, which is based on M-V/Epsilon) in spite of this. And because I had sufficiently sized solid boosters, horizontal rocket integration wasn't an option.

"A second, solid fueled system added to an existing liquid fueled system also adds an additional level of complexity, which also adds to costs."

"Rockets assembled and integrated horizontally, not vertically, which Space-X considers less expensive and less hazardous."

Should the M-II receive a major overhaul/retcon?
 
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ISProgram

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When I was developing the M-II, I came across this quote by Elon Musk:



I wanted it to look like the H-IIA so much, that I decided to go with the LOX/Kerosene 1st stage (to differentiate it from the H-IIA) + LOX/LH2 2nd stage + monolithic solid boosters (My justification was to have commonality with Negi-5, which is based on M-V/Epsilon) in spite of this. And because I had sufficiently sized solid boosters, horizontal rocket integration wasn't an option.

"A second, solid fueled system added to an existing liquid fueled system also adds an additional level of complexity, which also adds to costs."

"Rockets assembled and integrated horizontally, not vertically, which Space-X considers less expensive and less hazardous."

Should the M-II receive a major overhaul/retcon?

Don’t change the M-II. I like it the way it is :)

Ignore that statement. Being serious now.

Any response I give ultimately depends on what you mean by “major overhaul/retcon”.

Yes, if the M-II is getting an evolution path (like the H-II to the H-IIA and H-IIB), then I see no problem with it, since NASDA/JAXA did the same thing and HASDA could also do it (M-IIA, anyone?).

No, if the actual M-II will be changed. Several reasons for this:

1) Might result in modified addons, etc. This is a foolish stupid reason, so feel free to ignore/facepalm.

2) Different configurations, different results, different problems.

RP-1/LOX 1st stage, LH2/LOX 2nd stage, and RP-1/LOX (Ariane 4-style) strap-ons: Maybe the best "new" configuration to go with. Might require a change in infrastructure.

RP-1/LOX 1st stage, RP-1/LOX 2nd stage, and solid fueled strap-ons: Upper stage no longer high-energy, so will not carry same payload into orbit. Decreased payload mass may not be worth the lower launcher causes. Better to ditch the solid fuel strap-ons.

LH2/LOX 1st stage, LH2/LOX 2nd stage, and solid fueled strap-ons: Nothing wrong with this, since JAXA has one called the H-IIA/H-IIB. Might eliminate the M-II Heavy, since LH2 isn’t that good at ground level and you would need another form of thrust augmentation.

Another reason you shouldn’t go with 2) is because it eliminates the only thing that makes the M-II different from the H-II (RP-1 first stage), and thus, the only reason it could/would exist. For the same reason, I would never contemplate making the Hermes use LH2/LOX for the CCS EVEN if it does fall short of expectations, since if I did that, it just be a smaller SLS and there be no point at having it (the M-II, I think is slightly smaller than a H-II, too). I think it has to do really with whether or not you want to make a LV you designed yourself a virtual copy of another real-life LV, etc.

Lastly, JAXA seems to be content with the H-II even though it is a three-part rocket system. Maybe HASDA should/could too.

If your problem also includes horizontal vs. vertical integration, I would go with horizontal integration, since a few rockets still do it (Delta IV, Falcon 9, Antares) and it seems easier and more efficient to do.
 

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mikusingularity
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Yes, if the M-II is getting an evolution path (like the H-II to the H-IIA and H-IIB), then I see no problem with it, since NASDA/JAXA did the same thing and HASDA could also do it (M-IIA, anyone?).
If I make an M-IIA or M-III as a future "evolution", the solid boosters would have to go away because I plan for it to have a reusable boost-back first stage like Falcon 9 Reusable (the problem is, there is no autopilot in Orbiter which can do a relatively precise [accuracy of 100-200 meters or less] vertical powered landing on Earth).
 
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ISProgram

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If I make an M-IIA or M-III as a future "evolution", the solid boosters would have to go away because I plan for it to have a reusable boost-back first stage like Falcon 9 Reusable (the problem is, there is no autopilot in Orbiter which can do a relatively precise [accuracy of 100-200 meters or less] vertical powered landing on Earth).

That would come with the problems SpaceX has right now with that ~30% payload reduction. Whether or not it’s worth the development cost become the issue. Since you would be using development costs to build a rocket that has less payload per given cost. SpaceX has already mentioned that a FH-R will probably fly most of their missions (has such a high payload capacity that it wouldn’t matter much if it lost some).

Thus, in my opinion, if you do go for a FULLY reusable launch vehicle, the least that should happen is that you maintain an expendable launch vehicle as well.

For example: M-III and M-IIIR

M-III has more payload capacity and ability than M-IIIR, which has the requirement of having to retrieve a reusable upper stage. M-III, for example, doesn’t have to worry about retrieving a upper stage that just delivered a payload into heliocentric orbit.

M-IIIR, however, will likely be more suited for the LEO business, since it can be reused and that orbit is more used and closer than GEO or escape, so more payload capacity/no worry about retrieving reusable components.

Thus, it would probably be better to have a future reusable rocket as a variant of a future expendable rocket as opposed to being fully reusable rocket family.


As for the reason I pointed out a LRB upgrade option: Liquid 1st stage for small rocket (Negi-6, anyone?), as well as my own plans:

picture.php
 
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mikusingularity
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I was thinking that, since Hatsunia is a Japan-like country, future space tourism would involve Kankoh-maru-like SSTOs. The Kankoh-maru vehicles would have used LOX/LH2 engines (evolved versions of the ones used on the H-II/H-IIA first stage).

---------- Post added 03-27-14 at 12:06 AM ---------- Previous post was 03-26-14 at 10:43 PM ----------

But there's another option if I want to retcon the M-II, one that hasn't been used on a launch vehicle before (until SpaceX develops the Raptor engine)...

LOX/Methane

The M in M-II is in fact supposed to stand for Miku/Mirai (which means "future"). But maybe it could stand for methane as well? The problem is, there's no methane stages in existence to base my mass ratios on.

actually, it stands for "Mikubishi," the primary contractor for the launch vehicle.

The Japanese H rockets were called that due to the use of hydrogen engines. (source)
 
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ISProgram

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But there's another option if I want to retcon the M-II, one that hasn't been used on a launch vehicle before (until SpaceX develops the Raptor engine)...

LOX/Methane

The M in M-II is in fact supposed to stand for Miku/Mirai (which means "future"). But maybe it could stand for methane as well? The problem is, there's no methane stages in existence to base my mass ratios on.

The Japanese H rockets were called that due to the use of hydrogen engines.

The GX was going to use it, so maybe there is some information on its second stage. So can't help you there.

However, the CECE (Common Extensible Cryogenic Engine), which was a modified RL-10, and which also ran on LH2/LOX. Or a least one version of it did.

If needing specs for a engine designed to burn CH4/LOX, then this page on the CECE should help. Only the "Methane Option" section is really relevant.

From what I read, the Methane CECE, and probably ALL CH2/LOX engines in general, have a low Isp compared to LH2 (in the order of 320-350), which means the only thing really attractive about is that the fuel might be easier to manufacture/handle, or at least for NASA and SpaceX, that it can be used with fuel created on Mars.

Don't forget this is is exactly why SpaceX is going for it, and why NASA was originally going to pack 4 CECEs on the Altair. Not to sure about Altair, since I heard they also intended to use the RS-18 (also used CH4/LOX for the ESAS testing).
 

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I've read about how GX was going to use "liquefied natural gas", but didn't know until today that LNG is "predominantly methane".

You know what, I'll just keep M-II/Negi-5 as a homage to H-IIA/Epsilon, having a few twists but still looking like H-IIA/Epsilon. Because that is what I had intended originally.
 
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