Project MeshLand: There is still hope?

[Artlav]

I was thinking about taking another shot at collision detection, raising basically, two questions:
1. Does anyone like to have it at all (terrain and vessels)?
2. How is the current status snapshot below works on your system?

The snapshot can be found here:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/orbf/meshland-090123.zip
Usage: enable meshland-core module, run (test)Visosad scenarios or something with ISS or Orulex in it.

It's not much, but the concept is new compared with older releases of the same system. There should be some vessel-vessel collisions like with ISS beam and centrifuge, and vessel-terrain collisions for pre-defined bases like copernicus crater, etc and Orulex terrain.

For vessel to vessel, the old centrifuge scenario is probably the best-looking one, providing that it works at all.

It's not expected to perform too well, so ideas and opinions about how to make a better collision detection system for Orbiter are welcome.

In case someone ask, no, Shukra station collision system cannot be improved or generalized either.

 

[T.Neo]

1. Does anyone like to have it at all (terrain and vessels)?

I would, definately. Currently, Meshland doesn't work well enough for me, and is too unstable. No offense, Artlav.

 

[Urwumpe]

I would really like to have it, especially for EVAs and IVAs, but I think, the current state of it is not acceptable.

I also have doubts it is useful as plug-in, maybe it needs a deeper connection to the physics engine of Orbiter, and if this comes, it would finally not be more than an effective data structure for collision detection.

 

[n72.75]

is there a way to fool the vessel into thinking that it is on the ground when it is landed on terain.

it would probely reduce realism of collision; but it would be stable.

what i would like if at all posable, is a collision system that is stable op to 100000X time accelleration. i doubt it is posible, but its nice to consider.

what does everone else think.

 

[Coolhand]

It has huge potential Artlav, if you can iron out some of the problems it would be a fantastic addition, i've been wanting to see further development for this for some time.

 

[TSPenguin]

I would defenitely love to see it comming forward. If it works properly I can finaly finish my Furry Dicez

 

[Artlav]

is there a way to fool the vessel into thinking that it is on the ground when it is landed on terain.
it would probely reduce realism of collision; but it would be stable.
what i would like if at all posable, is a collision system that is stable op to 100000X time accelleration. i doubt it is posible, but its nice to consider.

That is the way it was done years ago, and yes, it's much more stable that way. But, there is no reasonable tilting and completely unrealistic collision dynamics. Also, no vessel to vessel capability.

Here is one of the last versions with that solution:
http://orbides.1gb.ru/orbf/meshland-1.1.zip

And the old Moon bases it configured for (Orulex not yet invented back then):
http://orbides.1gb.ru/orbf/moonbases.zip (6.2Mb)

 

[Woo482]

I would use it if it worked well the only thing stopping me from using Orulex is that it does not work with UMMU apart from that I Like it and I think you should keep working on Mesh Land
and Orulex
EDIT1: Just tried the link at the top of the page and it works fine for me

 

[Linguofreak]

I think I generally agree with the people that have posted so far: Yes, I want it, I think Orbiter could really use it, but in its current state it's unworkable.

I think I also agree with Urwumpe, it's probably not going to be workable if it remains a plugin. It will probably require a good deal of collaboration between you and Martin on getting it written straight into the Orbiter core. After the next version comes out, I think the community is going to have to rent a jail cell and lock you and Martin in there until you turn out the next-next version complete with Meshland written into the core.

 

[Tschachim]

1. Does anyone like to have it at all (terrain and vessels)?

Here!

At first I need to apologize because of the silence of me and the Project Apollo - NASSP team. We're still using an old Meshland version (you probably know better which one) and we definitely need Meshland for the Saturn V rollout and the Lunar EVAs. Vessel to vessel collisions would be nice for docking and CSM EVAs. The reason for our lack of feedback is that we're working on an "Apollo 7 only" release which doesn't need Meshland, so we're concentrated on different things, but sooner or later we'll need Meshland desperately, at least the old version in a way not affecting other vessels or add-ons, which was the state of our conversation about that about a year ago.

Cheers
Tschachim

 

[Artlav]

At first I need to apologize because of the silence of me and the Project Apollo - NASSP team. We're still using an old Meshland version (you probably know better which one) and we definitely need Meshland for the Saturn V rollout and the Lunar EVAs. Vessel to vessel collisions would be nice for docking and CSM EVAs. The reason for our lack of feedback is that we're working on an "Apollo 7 only" release which doesn't need Meshland, so we're concentrated on different things, but sooner or later we'll need Meshland desperately, at least the old version in a way not affecting other vessels or add-ons, which was the state of our conversation about that about a year ago.

Maybe a special-purpose collision system will do better?
Look at Shukra solution - it can handle UMMU-like moonwalks, vessel rolling and landing. Little impact resistance thought.

 

[Mandella]

I'd be happy with something vessel to vessel to UMMU, so that my poor piloting doesn't drift me through the other craft quite so often. It only needs to handle lowspeed collisions to be fine for what I would usually use it for.

Of course, momentum transfer would also be nice to give a realistic result for when I bumble through Descartes' hab centrifuge....

 

[Andy44]

I like using it for terrain, especially with Orulex, and I have been able to make it work provided I land on a flat enough surface.

I'm less interested in collision detection, but it would be nice someday.

I have to say, Artlav, your add-ons, even the buggier ones, are some of the most ambitious add-ons in the Orbiter community. You tackle some really tall orders and produce some spectacular results. Don't get discouraged; who dares wins, as they say. Keep up the good work.

 

[Tschachim]

Maybe a special-purpose collision system will do better?
Look at Shukra solution - it can handle UMMU-like moonwalks, vessel rolling and landing. Little impact resistance thought.

Yes, that looks fine for me. I already noticed your thread over at the Meadville forum, I'm going to answer there a little bit more comprehensive.

Cheers
Tschachim

 

[Artlav]

Of course, momentum transfer would also be nice to give a realistic result for when I bumble through Descartes' hab centrifuge....

Colliding with animations? Not even remotely doable in an add-on.

Yes, that looks fine for me. I already noticed your thread over at the Meadville forum, I'm going to answer there a little bit more comprehensive.

Waiting for your reply then.

 

[Kelpie]

Hi Artlav, I agree with Andy44

I have to say, Artlav, your add- ons, even the buggier ones, are some of the most ambitious add-ons in the Orbiter community. You tackle some really tall orders and produce some spectacular results. Don't get discouraged; who dares wins, as they say. Keep up the good work.

"Orulex" along with "Orbiter sound" are the two most needed addons for immersion in the

sim. There is nothing like arriving or leaving a moon base and having to alter your flight profile to avoid the rim of the crater. At the moment this can be ignored but with a stable "Meshland" you would have to pay attention all the way in and out.
​

I for one await for this as a workable addon so please keep up the good work


-----Post Added-----


Dont know what happend on that last post shoudn't post and fly at the same time

 

[sputnik]

Artlav,

I'd really like to see the system you have on the centrifuge, but generalized to put on any sort of landing pad or flat area. I was thinking in terms of a generic vessel, attached with an attach point, flat area dimensions specified in the .cfg file. I'd notionally termed it a "lilypad".

The lilypad would be useful for all sorts of things -- the flat top of a carrier, the inside of a big docking bay, pads stuck on the sides of Kulch's Space Elevator at levels other than GEO, or very much like the centrifuge you have, as a big rotorvator/tether.

What it seems to need is some friction. Can't really get the intended friction of a vessel (GetSurfaceFrictionCoeff(), sadly, doesn't exist), but you could just assume some reasonable values, different for fore/aft and side-to-side, and apply the force in the vessel frame.
To keep the thing stuck on for large time accelerations, it might be necessary to cheat and attach with an attach point for the duration of the high acceleration.

I'd really like to look at your source code and help. If not, I'd really like to see this expanded a bit, because the centrifuge in my opinion is 90% of the way to making a VERY useful new capability for Orbiter.

 

[RisingFury]

Artlav, is there a description on how your collision detection works anywhere?

I've been reading a lot about collision detection lately and I got a general impression that it's a pain in the ass, but I have accumulated a lot of what I think is useful data.

I know the stuff you're doing is *far* from easy, especially in these circumstances, but I'd still like to see how it's done.

 

[Ark]

I would LOVE better Meshland. The bouncing and rolling is very difficult to work with, and UMMU ability is nil unless you've found a perfectly flat surface.

 

[nidhugg]

Collision detection would be great! Say, if I somehow got the time to make an attempt on mesh-to-mesh collision - are there functions in the Orbiter API to get mesh info? Can't recall I have seen any. What functions did you use Artlav?
My plan (more of a daydream really) is to make a combined package that manages collisions, damage and various physical effects that are not simulated in Orbiter (radiation, heat and stuff like that)