Launch News [Sep.1, 2016] Falcon 9 explodes on the Launch Pad

Now, here's my question: How often do airlines take their pilots out of the cockpit and send them to extra simulator training units?

a) the minimum the law mandates?
b) as often as the pilots would feel reasonable?

How often do you think airlines take their aircraft off-duty and do maintenance and inspections?

a) as the law mandates?
b) more often?

c) As often as makes the yearly cost of extra training and maintenance equal to the money that would be lost in destroyed airframes, higher salaries needed to attract pilots, and revenue lost to passengers developing a fear of the airline if that training and maintenance were not done. Now, with airlines, the economic power of the company is much greater than that of its customers or pilots, and there may also be a fair bit of information asymmetry as to risks and costs involved. In the space launch industry, customers are going to frequently be companies or organizations as large or larger than the launch provider with teams of experts that can be put to analyzing the risks of using one launch provider or another. An event like this will thus *definitely* affect SpaceX's bottom line, and they will thus be inclined to move further in the direction of reliability, even if greater costs are involved.
 
c) As often as makes the yearly cost of extra training and maintenance equal to the money that would be lost in destroyed airframes, higher salaries needed to attract pilots, and revenue lost to passengers developing a fear of the airline if that training and maintenance were not done.
(...)
. In the space launch industry, customers are going to frequently be companies or organizations as large or larger than the launch provider with teams of experts that can be put to analyzing the risks of using one launch provider or another.

We've already seen during the financial crisis that business fails miserably at factoring in small but significant risks - the models don't work.

So I'm afraid I believe it's wishful thinking that space industry would be the exemption and be able to factor that kind of risk correctly. Small but crippling risks are the very thing business is consistently bad at dealing with - pretty much always the finding is that such risks are downplayed, ignored, not acknowledged,...

Edit: There's also no real evidence that airlines get the calculation correctly - they seem to be bankrupted by serious accidents (as well as other factors) with some regularity - despite having access to insurance.

---------- Post added at 05:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:10 AM ----------

For the sake of it, the problems as outlined in investigation reports:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster

conflict between engineering data and management judgments, and a NASA management structure that permitted internal flight safety problems to bypass key Shuttle managers. (...) In the appendix, he argued that the estimates of reliability offered by NASA management were wildly unrealistic, differing as much as a thousandfold from the estimates of working engineers.

The engineers knew, management didn't want to listen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Columbia_disaster

An example was the position of Shuttle Program Manager, where one individual was responsible for achieving safe, timely launches and acceptable costs, which are often conflicting goals. The CAIB report found that NASA had accepted deviations from design criteria as normal when they happened on several flights and did not lead to mission-compromising consequences.

Conflict between engineering and administrative goals, the engineers knew, management didn't want to listen.

That's about the theme when NASA screws up. Now let's have industry - Deepwater Horizon oil spill:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_investigation


A large number of decisions were made that were highly questionable and potentially contributed to the blowout of the Macondo well... Virtually all were made in favor of approaches which were shorter in time and lower in cost. That gives us concern that there was not proper consideration of the tradeoffs between cost and schedule and risk and safety.

Conflict between engineering and administrative goals.

One of the decisions met with tough questions was that BP refuted the findings of advanced modelling software that had ascertained over three times as many centralizers were needed on the rig. It also decided not to rerun the software when it stuck with only six centralizers, and ignored or misread warnings from other key tests, the panel said.

The engineers knew, management didn't want to listen.

The record shows that without effective government oversight, the offshore oil and gas industry will not adequately reduce the risk of accidents, nor prepare effectively to respond in emergencies

Industry doesn't achieve adequate risk management without being regulated.

So, not listening to the engineers, downplaying the risks they estimate to have good PR and sell stuff, conflicts between management goals and engineering goals - that's the stuff disasters are made of. Either give the decisionmaking to the engineers (i.e. do not operate as business) or regulate externally.

I rest my case.
 
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What about for Red Dragon?

Hello everyone :tiphat:, I came across this forum when searching for relevant news/discussion about the recent Falcon 9 launch explosion. What a great site indeed! There seems to be many enthusiasts here.

Since the incident is still under investigation, the reason being for this explosion is speculative at this point. Though I'm curious as to whether this will cause a set back for the Red Dragon launch window intended to happen in ~ 2018. Many things are at play here– people on Metaculus are discussing about this.

http://www.metaculus.com/questions/224/will-spacex-launch-for-mars-in-the-2018-window/

It's an interesting site in that it allows one to make a prediction for the outcome of an event. For those who enjoy sharing informative conclusions or interested in seeing their predictive power I would suggest to have a look. :hide:

By the way, I agree that the flying object captured in the footage does seem a bit weird, though I haven't looked into what it's about from other sources as of writing.
 
I wonder if they can RTF without finding a conclusive root cause? It's ballsy to talk of a November date at the same time as the toughest analysis in their history. Maybe they launch a private SpaceX demo flight to reassure investors, whilst simultaneously instrumenting that fueling complex with even more data streams?
 
I wonder if they can RTF without finding a conclusive root cause? It's ballsy to talk of a November date at the same time as the toughest analysis in their history. Maybe they launch a private SpaceX demo flight to reassure investors, whilst simultaneously instrumenting that fueling complex with even more data streams?

Well, if they don't launch again soon, they will be bankrupt. If the November attempt fails as well, they will be bankrupt. Sounds like they can at least die trying.
 
Well, if they don't launch again soon, they will be bankrupt. If the November attempt fails as well, they will be bankrupt. Sounds like they can at least die trying.

Source?
 


Plain logic actually - SpaceX does not have infinite funds, so they can't afford infinite investigations. They are not NASA. They need to earn money by launching. If they are not launching, they are making a loss. They also need money because they need to fix the launch site. At least clean it up for the next lease.

Now, SpaceX already consumed a lot of money for far more failures during testing than planned. They lost a launch site. And a payload during launch processing. They can't have much financial reserves left.
 
Maybe a merger.
 
Any chance SpaceX is buying insurance on their own flight? If the flight fails, they still get paid from insurance?

Seems like it'd be a smart thing to do and probably legal somewhere on Wall Street :P
 
Any chance SpaceX is buying insurance on their own flight? If the flight fails, they still get paid from insurance?

Seems like it'd be a smart thing to do and probably legal somewhere on Wall Street :P

I heard from a former employee of SpaceX that Elon's playing a shell game with his money, and that it's a matter of when, not if, it all comes crashing down around him.
The dude is also borderline conspiracy nut, though, so take from it what you will.
 
I heard from a former employee of SpaceX that Elon's playing a shell game with his money, and that it's a matter of when, not if, it all comes crashing down around him.

Seriously: Musk did not get this far by being completely brain dead. But as any good investor, he takes risks and the risks can sometimes decide to become history.
 
spaceX will be alright elon only has to look down the back of his many sofas for some loose change
 
Any chance SpaceX is buying insurance on their own flight? If the flight fails, they still get paid from insurance?

Seems like it'd be a smart thing to do and probably legal somewhere on Wall Street :P

Here's a draft of the insurance rider:

If the Falcon 9 (known as "The Vehicle") gets all explodey (known as a R.U.D) during any point from processing from extraction from raw ore through impact landing ensconcement in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum, the Insurer (known as "The Sucker") will pay out the greater of the sum of the cost of the launch, the cost of any damaged SpaceX equipment, the cost of the payload, plus the most recent quarterly losses from Tesla, plus $100 million USD, or a lump sum $100 Billion USD.
 
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Any chance SpaceX is buying insurance on their own flight? If the flight fails, they still get paid from insurance?

Seems like it'd be a smart thing to do and probably legal somewhere on Wall Street :P
You're acting like it's some kind of shady deal. It'd be a pretty standard policy on the surplus lines market if SpaceX decides to insure the flight/vehicle itself. It is possible they simply practice self insurance and decide instead to retain all the potential losses to SpaceX. But I can almost guarantee you that they have insurance covering damage to third parties, possibly including CCAF, that would just be liability insurance.

Note that I work in the insurance industry, though all of the above is hypothetical; I have no knowledge of the specifics of SpaceX's business dealings.
 
You're acting like it's some kind of shady deal.

No, insuring the vehicle itself wouldn't be shady at all. It would actually make sense during the early days of development, while the rosks are unknown - that's if you can get a decent deal on such an insurance, given that the risks are unknown :P
 
No, insuring the vehicle itself wouldn't be shady at all. It would actually make sense during the early days of development, while the rosks are unknown - that's if you can get a decent deal on such an insurance, given that the risks are unknown :P

Well now I'm lost, what did you mean by that last line then about it probably being legal? :shrug:
 
Latest update: http://www.spacex.com/news/2016/09/01/anomaly-updates

September 23, 1:00pm EDT

Three weeks ago, SpaceX experienced an anomaly at our Launch Complex 40 (LC-40) at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. This resulted in the loss of one of our Falcon 9 rockets and its payload.

The Accident Investigation Team (AIT), composed of SpaceX, the FAA, NASA, the U.S. Air Force, and industry experts, are currently scouring through approximately 3,000 channels of engineering data along with video, audio and imagery. The timeline of the event is extremely short – from first signs of an anomaly to loss of data is about 93 milliseconds or less than 1/10th of a second. The majority of debris from the incident has been recovered, photographed, labeled and catalogued, and is now in a hangar for inspection and use during the investigation.

At this stage of the investigation, preliminary review of the data and debris suggests that a large breach in the cryogenic helium system of the second stage liquid oxygen tank took place. All plausible causes are being tracked in an extensive fault tree and carefully investigated. Through the fault tree and data review process, we have exonerated any connection with last year’s CRS-7 mishap.

Edit:
This sounds alot like S-IVB 503 explosion that took place on January 20 1967. In that explosion the cause was the failure of one of the eight ambient temperature helium bottles mounted on the S-IVB thrust structure due to wrong weld material. This is what remained of the S-IVB after the mishap: http://history.nasa.gov/MHR-5/Images/fig327.jpg
 
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Wasn't it a bad strut on a COPV that caused the CRS-7 failure? This time it appears the COPV itself failed.
 
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