Gaming Shattered Galaxy Development

[Grover]

hey guys!

recently, ive been pondering whether or not this is a sensible idea, and i decided that there is more than enough skill out there to produce such a project, so ill just go right ahead and blurt it out here.

i have an idea for a game, and i think it would make an excellent community project for us to work on. ideally, with those that have some addon-devving experience.

its a space-combat game, but not with realistic physics like Orbiter, or even KSP, but rather star-wars physics. its more of a game than a simulator, but the end product would be just as fun to a sim enthusiast, due to some strategic value to the conflicts the player would experience.

ive spent the past 5-6 hours putting the ideas that i have so far into a briefing document, which is attached to this post for you to read at your leisure (only 13 pages long )

if this does take off here, id like to say now, i dont have the best coding abilities out there, and so i'd probably need some help from you experienced fellas round here to help me through, but it'd be nice to finish up in a few months or years time with something that we can look at and be proud of, and even if we can't be proud of it, working together on something is more fun that working on your own project alone isnt it?

so lemme know if you're interested, and what you could do to help it, and we'll get out community team together

thanks fellas, see ya round
Grover

 

[jangofett287]

Its a great Idea, but it defiantly still needs some work. For a start the name needs changing, as there is already a game called [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shattered_Galaxy]Shattered Galaxy[/ame]. You've come up with an interesting, if slightly generic, setting.

My biggest problem is the system scaling. I know that we are making a game not a sim, but its an immersion breaker to have a scale that is obviously off by at least one if not two orders of magnitude. For example if the max planet size is 16Km diameter, then Pi*Diameter gives us an equator distance of approx 50.2Km. This is less than the distance between London and Northampton!

I also have a problem with the navigation system, although that mostly stems back to the scaling problem. I accept the need for some form of 'FTL' travel, however a jump drive that basically requires 'refueling' after just one jump will make traveling across the game area a slow, tedious, flow breaking task. On the subject of jump drives I suggest you take a look at this. With some modifications this explanation of hyperspace jumping mechanics could easily provide the means to get around, while still stopping things like skilled/adventurous players from 'blockade running' the enemy front lines.

Another point is depth. a good example of a deep immersion world is one where you can sit down, start playing, be given a story mission, and 5 hours later your still playing it and haven't done the story mission because you got distracted by the pretty alien on spacestation Alpha 2 giving you a side mission. From what I can see the game universe should easily accept this depth, and it may already be planned, I just want to make the point it will take a lot of work. I like how the mission structure is looking but missions should also be available from places other than 'mission hubs', as this leads to a deeper game universe.

The combat isn't really commentable on as on much is really said about the actual mechanics, but what is there looks good. I skimmed the info on the various types of ships, but it looks to all be there.

the choice of programming language is not one I can comment on, as I'm certainly not a coder, however I am not aware of any existing game engines for which a dev licence could be obtained which would support this game. I know HarvesteR and co have done great things with Unity but last thing I heard they were running into limitations. Also you seem to forget that this isn't Orbiter, there is no 'Graphics Client' there is just the engine.

I think a community produced game is going to be an interesting experience, however I can foresee problems where things get held up waiting for one or two people to finish some vital model, texture or piece of code.

TL;DR:Great idea, looks interesting, several bits still need some work.

:whew: Long post I know. I think I got all the points I wanted into this, I'll post further If I come up with anything else. I'm defiantly in on this though, and I think I could provide some concept art. One final point: are we using inertial dampeners? as this seriously effects the design of the ships.

 

[Grover]

thanks for the reply, and one thing first:

anything i write here will likely be changed anyway, so ill treat this as constructive feedback, rather than pointing out faults

ok, so moving down the points:
Name needs changing? no problem, just give me a few minutes to think something up

system scaling? its not meant to be realistic, if you've played freelancer, the planets there are significantly smaller, yet the game still feels immersive once the story gets going. but i see your point, and perhaps there's a way we can scale them up, without going crazy

FTL travel? a nice document! it certainly makes for a new system, where you need only be in one sector of a (departure) star's gravity well to jump to the other without being flung in the other direction, perhaps i can use this, good catch!

gameplay depth? of course i'd make the game a little deeper, i just haven't given much thought into how i would go about it, but side-missions would certainly be possible, and a necessary part of a game like this

combat? ive taken alot of inspiration from other games, all you need is good balancing, and craft types specialised for each role they play, with no super-craft to spoil the mix (every craft has its weakness)

Programming language? would you elaborate a little on this? i too am not a coder, but you seem to have more of an insight that I, and a working game engine to act as a base for the project certainly lifts some of the workload

Community project? of course there's hard parts to working in a group, but i feel that the end result would be something we could ALL be proud of

of course it needs more work, this was just a day's worth of brainstorming and 5 hours of getting ideas into a document, im willing to scrap most of that for the sake of progress

inertial dampeners? of course, since we dont want to replace our crew after every jump, but this will be automatically controlled to reduce the workload of a pilot

thanks for the support, im gonna get a couple more ideas down to paper (digital paper ) then ill get some to-do lists out, so you can work on modelling ships, planets, stations or scenery (like cityscapes), but it depends on how much work has to be done and how many people contribute

thanks for the feedback guys!

 

[Urwumpe]

I don't recommend doing it as community project, if you really expect to get results.

 

[Grover]

that may well be the case Urwumpe, but I cannot produce everything, else it will take a VERY long time, and time is a commodity in many people's lives.

ill try it anyway, i can always pick up the project myself if people get bored with it

can anyone suggest a game engine for this project? im not sure if Unity is appropriate since im no coder, but a coder's insight would be greatly appreciated

thanks

 

[Urwumpe]

I would personally prefer Irrlicht there, since it is Opensource and pretty fast, but that is your choice in the end. you can adapt most engines to your goals, so this is no big problem. Choose one, and stick to it. Not select the best engine during most of your project life cycle.

About the project management, always remember the RACI model: Responsibility, Accountability, Consulted, Informed. It describes the roles and responsibilities in any organisation, and has the important wisdom, that exactly one, not more, not less, has to be accountable in the end.

As I made the experience, working as equal among equals is not the best for a project. You can't enforce unpopular, but necessary decisions.

So, I recommend you, be accountable for it. It is not about having to take the blame, what somebody else did wrong, but about having the power to make sure that the people responsible for other elements will do the right things, even if they don't like them. You can't just do what you like, but what is needed to be done - even if it is a free time project.

And if you do it as community project, get professional tools ASAP. A bug/feature tracker is mandatory, if you want to enforce discipline, a proper release process has to be defined.

 

[jangofett287]

I agree with Urwumpe here. A community project will only work if there is a clearly defined structure. This also makes it easy for devs to come and (Hopefully not) go. On the topic of launguage, I was simply thinking about how some languages are better suited to certain tasks, on top of the fact that some languages are faster than others. never the less, as I have said, I have almost no knowledge of such things.

 

[Grover]

i intend to keep any team that formes together, thats why im writing documents out, so that I and any other developers can all look at the same envisioned goal to work towards roughly the same end, then some good communication will keep us right on track. it also helps to be prepared to set aside my own opinions of course, that comes with working as part of a team.

hopefully someone out there will be able to help with the code, so that it doesnt turn into a flop

thanks

 

[HarvesteR]

Hi,

Just read the project, and it does look like a very cool idea. If there was a space game realism scale, with 0 being star wars games and 10 being Orbiter, this would sit in a place where there aren't too many others, which is always good.

Now, about the execution of the project itself, I can only try to give some advice, which will hopefully be of some use, since I went through a very similar situation myself about a year ago.

It's a very good thing that you took the time to write a preliminary design doc. It shows that this is more than just an idea already, and it can be turned into a proper project. That's a first step in the right direction I think.

Now, starting a project is the easy and fun part, as you're probably aware, but let's not even start talking about finishing it, the most important thing to ensure the project will see the light of day is having a nice, solid system to work under. If I had to point out a single thing that made the difference between KSP existing or not, I would say it was the decision to adopt an iterative work scheme from the start.

Basically what that means is that we made the decision to work in cycles. We worked on 3-week cycles, at the end of which the game must be in a presentable state. It doesn't have to be complete (and most likely won't), but it must be enough to see something working.

On our first cycle, we only had very basic ship controls, an even more basic ship editor, and placeholder graphics for everything. Getting something in was the name of the game, quality was a very distant secondary concern then.

This phase of development is very useful to make those hands-on decisions about how the game will play. When you're only a few days in, changing the direction of the entire project is literally a matter of minutes, so those first days are the best time to iron out any pending decisions on basic mechanics. It's also a good opportunity to play a very simple version of the game, and make sure it's fun and something people would like to play.

When you work in cycles, you need to start thinking about the work in terms of Features. You can only implement so many features in the three weeks, so you should plan ahead so that you don't commit to too many features. If you find that not all features will make it in on time, cut the least important ones out. It's always better to delay than to rush.


Now, in a project like this, I do believe that no matter how you choose to assemble a team, you as the project lead will inevitably need to learn to do some coding. To be perfectly frank, a project lead who isn't willing to pick up the code is generally looked upon as the dreaded "ideas man", and the dev communities usually frown upon such situations. I mean no offense though. I'm not saying this is the case here, but it's an impression you very much want to avoid, so I think it's important to stress this point, even at the risk of me sounding a little mean.


My suggestion, as you would expect, is to get your hands on Unity, and start playing with it. I don't advise you to try to start implementing your project right away though. Try something extremely simple for your first project, like Pong. If you can do Pong, you're already half-way there to learning the ropes for 99% of games. Then, move to something a little more involved, like a simple space shooting prototype.

Prototypes are another good idea for the very early stages of a project. Instead of trying to cram everything into a single large project all at once, make small prototypes of particular game mechanics, just to prove concepts. Make a small prototype of how ships will be controlled, make another one for the ship systems, game cameras, and eventually combat. These will be invaluable for getting an idea on how to achieve the things that the project requires. When it's time to implement the actual game features, it won't be unknown territory.


Well, this is starting to get rather long, so I'll cut it short now... Above all, having a solid working scheme is the single most important consideration. If after three weeks you have something to show, it will make all the difference, no matter how poorly it was done. At these early stages, having something to show for your efforts is the only concern.

I hope some of this is helpful in some way, and again, sorry if I sounded mean or arrogant.

Best of luck!

Cheers

 

[Grover]

thanks for the help HarvesteR, im sure that this will go a long way:

Unity engine? i had a quick look, and if you think it will work, ill get rolling on it soon, get some simple programs written, then see what i can do. yes, i had hoped to avoid coding personally, since an experienced coder would do a better job than I, but ofc i will learn to code, its just a case of learning another way of thinking and putting it into another language as well, and like you say, its necessary.

ill also work to get some sort of engine together ASAP. forget textures, just get a single system working where the player can fly round, then add NPC craft, combat and everything else in stages (3-4 weeks sounds like a good call). any helpers i get can each be assigned small tasks, such as building one mesh at a time, then eventually, editing them one at a time for our textures, if we have a working engine going, it should encourage more helpers to lend their expertise

i intend to run on the principle of nothing is permanent until everyone likes it, so if a new texturer comes along and wants to update the Elcetin Empire's cruiser, he can do it by all means, i may be a project manager, but its not just my project, everyone has a stake in it.

hopefully we can meet each other in the gaming market at some point in the far future

thanks man!
grover

 

[Grover]

im working on a combat/ship brief now, then ill be ready to start getting work done, whilst still allowing other people to join in, ill post the finished result when im done (tomorrow maybe?)

later folks

 

[Urwumpe]

im working on a combat/ship brief now, then ill be ready to start getting work done, whilst still allowing other people to join in, ill post the finished result when im done (tomorrow maybe?)

later folks

don't expect more than unwanted advice from me, I am too busy currently to do another project. But I like the idea.

 

[jedidia]

After reading through the brief, I kind of wonder if you might not be best of going for a Vega-strike mod (it's open-source, so a "mod" can be half a re-write). Depends on how strong you want to go for graphics quality, if DirectX 9 isn't a problem taking VS as a base could spare you hundreds of hours of work.

 

[Grover]

wow, looks like someone's hit the motherload!

it seems somebody has created a game engine for me, and i need only "mod" my game onto the base, good catch jedidia!

ill look into this a little more when i have time, then we can get rolling on with devving!

thanks for that, think you just saved me a few months of my life

 

[RisingFury]

1.) Never join a project who's leader doesn't know what they're doing.
2.) Working in a group is a lot more difficult than working alone.

Most of the initial work will be programming. You'll need to set up your own physics, rendering, input and sound environment before you can even start thinking about any complex game modes, models, story details,...

 

[Grover]

for now, im still browsing, but this Vega thing looks like gold to me, ill have to play around to see if it has all the features (and possibilities) that i want, but i dont plan to start any hard work, except planning, till i have a good base for the project, ideally, a good game engine

 

[Urwumpe]

for now, im still browsing, but this Vega thing looks like gold to me, ill have to play around to see if it has all the features (and possibilities) that i want, but i dont plan to start any hard work, except planning, till i have a good base for the project, ideally, a good game engine

Well, with Vega you have a fair deal of problems solved, at least in your context. The Elite like travel through fixed Worm holes might be a problem.

 

[jedidia]

The Elite like travel through fixed Worm holes might be a problem.

They did an experimental direct travel implementation once, just for the lulz, so it is possible.