Development Teams

[bisbeejim]

Hello all,

I've attempted to get some people to take their strongest computing skill and volunteer it towards developing Orbiter. Either the interest in working in teams or my ability to get the word out is, a how do I put this, "SUCKS!"

Microsoft has set up a programmers organizing system that expedites the managing of teamwork. I've named the account as Orbiter Repair Shop, Please feel free to go look at my account.

Some of us are really good at 3D but not so good at programming. Some of us are natural programmers but have little interest or ability as a 3D artist. Some of us are natural leaders, administrators, bean-counters (no-offense), or salesmen (or women). Of course there are those like me; a legally recognized social handicapper who should not (at all) be in charge of managing, coordinating, or leading, a group of people due to a psychiatrically recognized phenomenon as mind-blindness and emotional immaturity (due to a weak limpic system in the brain), but still carrier superior I.Q. and cognitive abilities.

The point is, regardless of who you are or what you can or cannot do, response to my "Repair Shop" (which is actually a team-based Orbiter programming development workshop) I'm getting almost no notice or interest. I'm very concerned.

If this group can pool and coordinate our strengths we can turn Martin Schweiger initial creation into something NASA would be proud of. All the while have fun doing it.

So, that said, any one ready to take more interest???
Thanks - Jim

 

[PhantomCruiser]

My modeling skills are getting better, but work has taken me away from Orbiter for nearly 18 months now. I've only been able to hit the simulator every now and again, and haven't worked on a mesh in over 12 (months).

I'd love to contribute, but time is a commodity at the moment.

 

[Xyon]

Well, I just started a project for Orbiter, which I'll talk about in the fullness of time. My 3D skills are nonexistant, but my C++ isn't too bad now.

Time is, as PC says, the most precious resource - I haven't "played" Orbiter in a very long time.

 

[Face]

The point is, regardless of who you are or what you can or cannot do, response to my "Repair Shop" (which is actually a team-based Orbiter programming development workshop) I'm getting almost no notice or interest. I'm very concerned.

Perhaps it is not clear what benefit a potential contributor will have in your "Shop" in contrast to simply going forward and developing alone?

Personally I'm not interested in developing Orbiter addons anymore, but I tinker around with Orbiter tools. Could you explain why I should be interested in your "Shop"?

 

[Urwumpe]

I think that is the important thing there - the project needs a concept or at least a goal.

 

[Enjo]

Of course there are those like me; a legally recognized social handicapper who should not (at all) be in charge of managing, coordinating, or leading, a group of people due to a psychiatrically recognized phenomenon as mind-blindness and emotional immaturity (due to a weak limpic system in the brain), but still carrier superior I.Q. and cognitive abilities.

Jim, I don't care what your psychiatrist said about you, but I do have to tell you that I develop Orbiter addons (and other hobby projects) exactly for the reason of NOT having somebody to coordinate my work and playing a manager. There's this misunderstanding about programmers, that they need managers, because without them the programmers wouldn't know what to do. I can be a manager too, plus I know how to program.

Furthermore, I occasionally team up with other developers, who I have great contact with without anybody's help. Believe me, it's all very spontaneous and this works the best.

Why not learning a concrete skill and try if somebody wishes to work with you on something, that is already partly done by you?

 

[Urwumpe]

There's this misunderstanding about programmers, that they need managers, because without them the programmers wouldn't know what to do.

Especially, if the programmers are using methods like Scrum, they are organizing themselves and almost only need management to pay their wages. The only role that they then need in a nearly management-like position is a Product Owner, who manages coarsely speaking the features that need to be implemented (The product backlog)

Like said - with a concept, it would be much easier to attract people, especially if the people can spontaneously join a project and leave again. Programmers are smart, they can manage themselves great!

 

[jedidia]

The only role that they then need in a nearly management-like position is a Product Owner, who manages coarsely speaking the features that need to be implemented (The product backlog)

And even that they only need if they want to get paid :lol:

I've named the account as Orbiter Repair Shop, Please feel free to go look at my account.

I can't even sign in via this link with my Microsoft account, so I still have no idea what this is about exactly. An environment? I have that on my pc already. Coordinating with other developers? There's github, and there's this forum, there's trello if you ever get enough people that checking off a list isn't practical anymore, and a myrriad of alternatives, usually depending on what the project lead (or just the guy who started it) is most familiar with. It's projects that attract people (and even they do so only veeeery tentatively), not environments.

 

[paddy]

Op joined 4 months ago (sept 2016), by the numbers presented had posted 11 times, sets up a "system" and then has a go at some folk who have invested over 4 months SOLID in man hours.

Baby , Pram and throwing me things.

On behalf of folk who have given so much ( and no way do I include myself in that group ), it really touched a nerve.

 

[jedidia]

On behalf of folk who have given so much ( and no way do I include myself in that group ), it really touched a nerve.

I think there's no need for that. On one side I can understand how somebody could get triggered by this, but on the other hand I have no objections to people trying things out. In my oppinion we've lost quite a few potential add-on developers by facing them with a kind of contempt for their enthusiasm, and that's a pitty. Now, realities have to be faced, and are often harsh, but there's no need to make it even harsher because we feel our work belitteled for some reason.

 

[Face]

Op joined 4 months ago (sept 2016), by the numbers presented had posted 11 times, sets up a "system" and then has a go at some folk who have invested over 4 months SOLID in man hours.

Well, that's some episode I surely missed. Who invested in what and why?

 

[bisbeejim]

I HEAR YA! Cause I've been there.

Yeah, you know, there's few things worse than some knucklehead taking the joy and pride out of your hobby because he (or she) opened their mouth and spoke when they should have kept quiet, or kept quiet when they should have spoken up. Me, I have an excuse - I was born with this evolutionary white-elephant. Some on the other hand take joy in watching someone get angry. Aside from needing to watch out for those kind there are some main reasons for doing this:

1. You (mostly) work on the things your best at or most interested in.
2. Many of us put in a little bit of time instead of a few putting in large amounts of time (I know that may not work but it's worth a try).
3. The idea of the shop is to help remove the pains from the basic user operating environment; user-friendly things like click on a vessel and its name automatically appears in the field-box.

Okay, I know, I've just mentioned three things that are the most likely reason for the shop to fail. However, (please envision me standing on a soap-box, in front of a waving flag, and a little national solemn music playing in the background) our pain is the user's gain, something which cannot be attained by anyone who lacks skill, pride, and courage (sorry: couldn't resist). We choose to do this, not because it's easy but because it's hard (oh man I'm really good). Because you realize you don't win wars by giving your life for your country, but because you made that other guy give his life for his country (where the hell did that come from?), something about pursuit of happiness and this being our finest hour, and finally never give up and never surrender. (Wow! The tears must be rolling down your cheeks by now).

Did I miss the "I have a dream about Boldly going where no man..."

Well, hell! I told you I was no leader.

I guess the bottom line is you guys (and gals) have to think of a reason why this matters.

Jim

 

[Enjo]

I think, that if not some working code, then at least an UML diagram, would work better than a speech.

 

[bisbeejim]

Okay Enjo, it is your idea, let's see what you have in mind?

 

[Urwumpe]

Okay Enjo, it is your idea, let's see what you have in mind?

I believe, you are not understanding the criticism here.

First of all, your speech above is completely missing its target. This is the real world, not some Hollywood movie. You want to talk to people who are by definition very well-grounded and not impressed much by cheap rhetorics. Most of us developers have a reality-distortion field already and it requires a very strong one to defeat ours. Some of us even managed to stand up against Steve Jobs.

Second, you want to start a team. But what is your goal, your product? What is your vision? Even at the really loosely organized CCCP Fleet project ("developers doing developer things"), we had known what we are doing and what the project is about. There was a product line that we had been agreeing on.

Third: Developers really need no managers. The experienced ones even have problems saying manager without feeling a pain somewhere. Especially if you are talking about a project that should take place in our free time, any kind of management is only disturbing. What do you want to do? Give developers orders? Even in a paid job, you need to be respected by your developers, or your developers will simply go away. "Developers are pretty much like cats" is a typical management complaint. Most developers I know are perfect examples of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_X_and_Theory_Y"]theory Y[/ame]

So, if you need to find a role for you, what about becoming a systems engineer and product owner? Not all developers are great engineers and the experienced developers know that being the one that defines the features and the person who implements and tests it is not working well. Create a concept for an add-on, make lousy pencil drawings, fill function matrices.... and if your add-on is interesting, the developers and artists will come to you.

Sell your idea!

If you have no idea - you have nothing to sell and nothing that will make a developer invest time into your project.

 

[paddy]

4 months, 120 days, 2880 hours
Wonder how long the ISS or Shuttle or Wide Awake took to Draw, Code, Debug?
As I said, its not for me at all that I took exception, I am delighted to get what I am given. Maybe another day I would have just huffed to myself and forgot about the thread. But to all the folk out there that have chipped in I, for one, am grateful.

 

[Urwumpe]

4 months, 120 days, 2880 hours
Wonder how long the ISS or Shuttle or Wide Awake took to Draw, Code, Debug?
As I said, its not for me at all that I took exception, I am delighted to get what I am given. Maybe another day I would have just huffed to myself and forgot about the thread. But to all the folk out there that have chipped in I, for one, am grateful.

Well, we are now not going the wrong way of deducing that everybody instantly joins O-F after downloading Orbiter.

Also, how long a project takes is not always easily specified. For example, for making this:

[ame="http://orbithangar.com/searchid.php?ID=4290"]Ares I-X Ultra 1.00[/ame]

I just needed about 20 hours C++ development time, but I took nearly everything from SSU that was already working for it. But many other popular add-ons need much more development time than that.

 

[bisbeejim]

Yes, I have nothing to sell, but it looks like you're onto something. What needs to be done to make Orbiter better? You set the goal, I'm listening.

 

[Urwumpe]

Yes, I have nothing to sell, but it looks like you're onto something. What needs to be done to make Orbiter better? You set the goal, I'm listening.

More cowbell. :facepalm:

 

[Face]

I'm getting almost no notice or interest.

Yes, I have nothing to sell

Try to reflect on these two statements. Maybe they are connected.