Development Teams

[jedidia]

-snip-

It's a nice speech, but it has a critical flaw: It still doesn't explain what you actually want. In all honesty, I feel like I've entered a conversation midways and am trying to piece together what I missed.

What exactly is it you want? You say you don't have a project, you have an environment for coordinating developers. Ok, fair enough. But... I still don't know why we need that other than to work on an actual project. So what exactly is your goal here? for development teams to migrate to your environment? Or for developers to work on your project? Or just as a general "job-portal" for Orbiter developers that can't think of something interesting to do right now?
I really don't get what it's about. You need to explain the concept better.

 

[bisbeejim]

I presume everyone has a sense of goodwill towards Orbiter. I assume that of all the people using Orbiter that there are only a small percentage of us (that includes me) that have the knowledge, skills, and experience to actually get deep into its program and write the code that will improve it for the average user. Currently I'm at the intermediate college level of mathematics, programming (and psychology if anyone cares to know). Though it's no one's business I have Asperger's Syndrome. There is a portion of my brain which has no neurons. I require others to do that portion of my thinking for me, and yes, it IS a burden for you but your helping me with my problem (which is to think for me) will result in me getting tremedous insights on other problems you or others maybe facing. Some of you urged me to sell my idea. I can't sell anything anymore than my parapalegic girlfriend can jump out of her wheelchair and run up and down stairs. My ability to communicate depends on others to bridge the gap. For those who bridged that gap tell me it was one of the best experiences in their lives. Why? Because they took the time to see the world through my eyes - the eyes of the Aspie. It looked very different to them, plus, they know I will never be able to see this world normally. What I see is a few very highly intellegent people who have the ability to greatly improve this wonderful program if they'd just get together and do it. The average user can't do it. Did you notice some half a million hits on Kerbal? That's because its fun to the smarter people. Orbiter is fun to the smartest, but there is only about 2 or 3% of us that are capable of upgrading Orbiter 16 with its first Service Pack. This last 2 to 3% of people is the cream of the crop. The BEST of the BEST. That's you! This can happen but we have to work together. If you look behind the poor humor in my speech you'll see that I'm correct about the message. This isn't about making us happy, its about making others happy, our pain will be their gain and Orbiter will continue to be the thorn in those other for-pay simulators. How about it guys? There are no others as smart as you (except me of course). We can do this.

 

[Urwumpe]

I presume everyone has a sense of goodwill towards Orbiter. I .....nanananananananananana........ We can do this.

:zzz:

Should this be some kind of therapy? And I just read "Service Pack" somewhere, I feel like I am really in the wrong movie now. Shouldn't you first understand Orbiter before planning to improve it?

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

Sorry for the cross-posting, but by now, I suspect it should be necessary. Pardon me there:

I've had an excess of Orbiter '16 crashing. It finally came to the point that I downloaded Microsoft's Visual C++ SDK to begin the hunt for the bug(s). It didn't take long until I realized I in over my head. Microsoft has a special team managing system which allows a senior programmer to assign duties and tasks to others. You may have a look at it at:

https://bisbeejim.visualstudio.com/Orbiter Repair Shop/Orbiter Repair Shop Team

I named the project "Orbiter Repair Shop."

I envisioned a shop to bring all your Orbiter '16 woes to be turned over to programming gurus that do nothing but meditate and code. Right now I have neither but I've got to start somewhere.

Once again - thanks for the warm welcome.

No. No. Never.

Orbiter is martins brain-child and copyright. Part of our community is to respect the copyright of others.

And using a debugger on Orbiter does not help you fixing it. Especially if you are not understanding what you see and where the cause of the problem really is. Debugging in Windows is tough enough, debugging without the source code and a debug build even more.

And if you think, our job is just to "meditate and code", I have a bad surprise for you: It isn't.

 

[jedidia]

Okay, let's try some bridging here then. You want to make Orbiter better. That's great. So do I, and a few people who work with me. We've been on the road for just about 2 years, and we're just about ready to show our baby to the world in these coming weeks. That is, we're ready for a first Alpha release, kind of a tech-demo.
I hope I'll get some more people aboard when we show that off, but I'm not holding my breath for it. Doesn't matter, the general feedback will be valuable enough for a first release. And I'm having this expectation with a project that by now has 100s of man-hours under the belt, and for which I am able to show off a clear concept and an approximate roadmap.

I know by now that you want to make Orbiter better, but I still don't know more than that. You need people to help you, as do we all, but I still don't know what you need help with. You seem to want (although I'm still not quite sure whether I got that right) that people migrate projects to your environment, but I still haven't heard of any advantages over using a social group on this forum paired with GitHub.
You talk about making things easier for the user, but I have no idea how exactly your environment will facilitate that.
So let's try again. You want to make Orbiter better. Great! Now, how do you want to do that again, exactly? I still didn't get that part, as hard as I'm trying.

 

[Enjo]

I believe, you are not understanding the criticism here. (...)

Thanks for sparing my fingers and keyboard. I owe you a beer. Do you have time in mid-end of January? This time it's got to work

Though it's no one's business I have Asperger's Syndrome.

Then for the love of God, don't mention it in every post. Look, everybody's got something. If not a victimizing disorder, then some coffee/amphetamine-boosted domination sociopathy. The question is how one overcomes his/her disorders.

I require others to do that portion of my thinking for me

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but in the real world thinking for others is something, that I get paid for big time. And it also costs me my own health up to such extremes, that I have started to balance one and the other.

This last 2 to 3% of people is the cream of the crop. The BEST of the BEST. That's you! This can happen but we have to work together.

Yeah, I know, I know... And we are already working on it together, as jedidia said. Have you also heard about the SSU project?

Okay Enjo, it is your idea, let's see what you have in mind?

Well, it's your project. You have to know it. If you still want to know what's on my mind, here's my Orbiter projects page. Recently we've been into Lagrange MFD.
If, on the other hand, you want suggestions for new projects, I'd like to see abstracting of the Orbiter API. Not that much skills are required, but a lot of time and dedication. Are you gonna take it?

Also a word of advice to someone who hasn't done any projects yet: if you lack the will / ability to learn for fun, then forget about Orbiter projects. What you learn stays in your mind and is yours forever. Ego boosts, on the other hand, last only for a few days.

 

[PhantomCruiser]

I don't know if it's been brought up, but Orbiter is Closed Source. You can't make an SP-1 for it because the code isn't anyone's to distribute except for Dr. S.

One can build a team and develop something FOR Orbiter (SSU, Orcus Patera, etc), that's all good. But if you want to build a team to make Orbiter better, then find the gap and fill it. If you want to expand the core program the result won't be Orbiter it'll be something else, for reasons already mentioned.

 

[llarian]

As a long time Orbinaut (going back to the beginning), there is quite a history of attempts at "team" building. It has only worked insofar as the particular components of each team were willing to cooperate.

Orbiter is a community of inveterate individualists. The major improvements to the simulator have come at the hands of individuals exercising their own talents, in their own time, at their own expense. Thank God for the rogues amongst us.

Orbiter may be a form of therapy for some of us. We have also had members who have gone off the deep end (Nightshade comes to mind ... I hope he is getting well), but it was never intended to be used as therapy and frankly, while there may psychotherapists among us, Orbiter is their holiday and release too. Noone should ever be attempting to offer therapy to one who needs it unless they are specifically qualified in that specific field.

Members come and members go as their interest waxes and wanes. At this time, there may seem to be little addon development proceeding as we work through the idiosyncracies of Orbiter 2016. As soon as most of the foibles are ironed out, rugged individualists will again be developing, hot and heavy.

And Martin will still hold the copyright ... and the respect of the dedicated rest of us.

 

[Urwumpe]

Thanks for sparing my fingers and keyboard. I owe you a beer. Do you have time in mid-end of January? This time it's got to work

Sadly not. I will be deployed in Cologne for the first three months. There are worse things in live than having to work in Cologne during the carnival season though. :lol:

---------- Post added at 06:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

As a long time Orbinaut (going back to the beginning), there is quite a history of attempts at "team" building. It has only worked insofar as the particular components of each team were willing to cooperate.

I agree - it only works if there is a common vision of what will be produced. It was easy for SSU in that case. Maybe David513 also had been partially responsible in forming the initial SSU team. There was a need and it was agreed to fill it.

 

[Xyon]

*ahem* Staff hat off a sec...

I presume everyone has a sense of goodwill towards Orbiter.

I certainly hope so, in a community built around the program.

I assume that of all the people using Orbiter that there are only a small percentage of us

Correct, on the whole, consumers outnumber producers.

(that includes me)

Does it? What are you bringing to the table?

that have the knowledge, skills, and experience to actually get deep into its program

That doesn't come so easily with a closed source program. Reverse engineering is possible, sure, but redistribution would be violating copyright, which has been mentioned above.

and write the code that will improve it for the average user.

Define "improve" in this context. What problems have you identified? What approach do you propose to take to resolving them? How will this make Orbiter better for the end-user? What do you want?

Currently I'm at the intermediate college level of mathematics, programming (and psychology if anyone cares to know).

Excellent! Education is vital for affluence and eventual life achievements. I wish you the best of success in your academic pursuits.

Though it's no one's business I have Asperger's Syndrome.

So does my best friend. It's an interesting diagnosis for a plethora of distinct characteristics which define actually very little about the sort of person you are, though continually drawing attention to the concept that there's something "wrong" with you as a result definitely does define the sort of person you are.

There is a portion of my brain which has no neurons.

I could probably have made that determination from here based on some of the things you've posted.

I require others to do that portion of my thinking for me

Erm. What? What part of your thinking is that?

and yes, it IS a burden for you

Not if I decide not to do it, no.

but your helping me with my problem (which is to think for me)

If you are incapable of rational thought it's a wonder you're even able to attain college-level education, as you asserted previously. Does someone else sit your exams for you?

will result in me getting tremedous insights on other problems you or others maybe facing.

Well, I have been having stiff joints in the cold lately, perhaps you could help with that? Or maybe you can fix my car for me so it doesn't rattle on the slow rebound any more?

Some of you urged me to sell my idea.

What idea?

I can't sell anything

Step one is having something to sell.

anymore than my parapalegic girlfriend can jump out of her wheelchair and run up and down stairs.

A bit tasteless, and unecessary, really.

My ability to communicate depends on others to bridge the gap.

I think you may have misunderstood how communication is supposed to work. I am fond of this example myself.

For those who bridged that gap tell me it was one of the best experiences in their lives. Why? Because they took the time to see the world through my eyes - the eyes of the Aspie.

It seems like you expect a lot from everyone else, while offering very little in return.

It looked very different to them, plus, they know I will never be able to see this world normally.

What does "normal" look like?

What I see is a few very highly intellegent people who have the ability to greatly improve this wonderful program if they'd just get together and do it.

Lead by example! Orbiter is about fun, and your rallying call isn't working because it's essentially hollow. "Come on guys, do the things! You know... the things that need to be done... to make it better!! Well, I don't know what they are, but... surely... they're there to be done! It's so simple!"

The average user can't do it.

Nobody can do it if they don't know what it is.

Did you notice some half a million hits on Kerbal?

Yeah, Kerbal is a lot of fun, and it's very approachable. Orbiter is fun in different ways, to different people.

That's because its fun to the smarter people. Orbiter is fun to the smartest

That's what I just said, more or less.

but there is only about 2 or 3% of us that are capable of upgrading Orbiter 16 with its first Service Pack.

Actually... hold on... we have 15,018 members as I write this, and only one of those members is capable of doing anything remotely similar to what you descibe. That's 0.006%.

This last 2 to 3% of people is the cream of the crop. The BEST of the BEST.

I'm sure Martin will be very happy that you think so highly of him.

That's you!

No, it's Martin, I thought I said that.

This isn't about making us happy, its about making others happy, our pain will be their gain

I think you've missed the point of both Orbiter, and the Orbiter community, if this is your ethos, and I doubt sincerely that you will find many willing subscribers to this point of view if you are not offering a salary as reimbursement.

Anyway. Staff hat back on.

 

[Urwumpe]

Yeah, Kerbal is a lot of fun, and it's very approachable. Orbiter is fun in different ways, to different people.

Its no shame to enjoy both. They are different enough.

 

[hutchison66]

what about this in Orbiter 2016 we have the default Shuttle and SSU has now released their Shuttle but we need Shuttle Fleet to work in 2016 We know David 413 has no interest in updating it or so far releasing the source code.
what we'd need to do make a compatible Orbiter with payload attachment points, spin tables and Tilt point. its an idea for a team idea

 

[Urwumpe]

what about this in Orbiter 2016 we have the default Shuttle and SSU has now released their Shuttle but we need Shuttle Fleet to work in 2016 We know David 413 has no interest in updating it or so far releasing the source code.
what we'd need to do make a compatible Orbiter with payload attachment points, spin tables and Tilt point. its an idea for a team idea

Guess what... you could even use SSU as a starting point and not need to begin from zero. :tiphat: You have the right to fork (just respect our license, of course)

 

[slaver0110]

<snip>
This isn't about making us happy, its about making others happy, our pain will be their gain and Orbiter will continue to be the thorn in those other for-pay simulators.
<snip>

To be honest, to me this stuck out like a careless radar in a stealth battlefield.
Do you have a problem with pay-to-play software?

 

[Ripley]

Today I was going to write something exactly like this.

It's a nice speech, but it has a critical flaw: It still doesn't explain what you actually want. In all honesty, I feel like I've entered a conversation midways and am trying to piece together what I missed.

What exactly is it you want? You say you don't have a project, you have an environment for coordinating developers. Ok, fair enough. But... I still don't know why we need that other than to work on an actual project. So what exactly is your goal here? for development teams to migrate to your environment? Or for developers to work on your project? Or just as a general "job-portal" for Orbiter developers that can't think of something interesting to do right now?
I really don't get what it's about. You need to explain the concept better.

 

[SolarLiner]

Okay, reading this thread up and down, I think I know what goal he's trying to accomplish.

In itself, he doesn't have anything to sell because he doesn't want to start a proejct. He wants to create a group in which fans of Orbiter can join in their common interest to help the simulator grow my making add-ons to it. One person having an idea, for example, can talk about it, asking for people with skills he is himself lacking to help him along the way.

But that group you're wanting to create, already exists, and you're posting your idea on it. Talk about forum-ception... :lol:

What I could agree might lack is some management tools to make it simple to connect and work together, but as number of use have said before, we are all here because of the passion we share, and not in the interest of working some more, be it paid or volunteer.
If you have an idea to share, share it here. Want to recreate a spacecraft? Make a new one out of your imagination? Build a new MFD? Ask away, because this is the place to ask.

 

[bisbeejim]

When I am required to engage in an activity that requires me to have a fully functional mentally developed mind no, however, I don't. Asperger's is more horrible condition than losing a leg or arm. I wish I could find the journal written by a research psychiatrist that explained it well. For everyone I communicate with I require them to put in the extra effort to understand me. To not do so is no less than standing by and watching a paraplegic drop their bag of groceries and not offer to help pick them up. It is cruel and often done out of ignorance. It has no place in society.

 

[Urwumpe]

When I am required to engage in an activity that requires me to have a fully functional mentally developed mind no, however, I don't.

You do know that your life does not depend on "improving Orbiter", don't you? You have all the freedom to say no without discrimination.

 

[Thorsten]

Pooling resources and working as a team sounds much better in theory than it works in practice with volunteers. Just some of my experiences over the years in practice:

Sure - everyone wants to make a project better - people just usually disagree what is better. In the Flightgear project have people who see lavish eye-candy as the epitome of simulation, others who go for steady 60 fps on multiple screens with minimal eye candy, yet others are ready to dispense with visuals as long as the flight dynamics simulation is accurate, yet others want radio instrumentation to be high-fidelity and never look out in any case, yet others want a MP environment,... And usually these goals are not partially or fully in conflict (compare the recent discussion on the various Shuttle projects in Orbiter - the amount of realism and complexity different people enjoy is just different).

And we also have no shortage of appeals to make the software 'better' according to a particular vision.

The most crucial ingredient of a large development team is just not co-ordination, a management infrastructure/webpage or motivation, it's the ability to manage disagreements halfway gracefully. To clash in a discussion, to be able to find a compromise everyone can exist with and then to move on and get behind the compromise (i.e. you almost never get exactly what you want as defined goal). To know when it's better to code co-existing alternatives, when it's important to back off your personal goals, when it's important to do something you personally don't enjoy at all for the greater good, that kind of thing.

Massive disagreements are usually not a matter of 'if' but of 'when', and the infrastructure needs to be designed to protect the project - for instance in terms of licensing. If the whole project rests on proprietary code of one key contributor and that key contributor leaves and withdraws his permission, then the project is dead. In these cases, having an OpenSource license which permits forking and further development makes a big difference.

In the end, personal issues matter just as much as coding skills - some brilliant coders end up making hardly any difference because they never manage to align their goals with the team or don't bother to communicate what they're doing. The most useful API remains pointless if its existence and function is not communicated to the people who might find it useful. On the other hand, even a simple feature can make a lot of difference if it's well-documented and used by dozens of other people.

For this thread, I'm wildly guessing if you ask different people to identify their priorities what 'better Orbiter' means for them, you'll get a surprising plethora of answers.

And of course, everyone is much more inclined to talk others into getting in line behind his vision than to get in line behind someone else's vision :lol:

 

[bisbeejim]

Are you certain about that Urwumpe? I was dying my friend, my therapist will verify. Then I found this program. It provided just enough spark of life in that I am still here. The last few months I have come closer to death than I have ever in the last 60 years. I was swinging on cotton lint above my grave. To me I'm no longer concerned with copyrights, rules, and stupid things like that - and they are stupid when you have this kind of experience. Your values change, you learn what is REALLY important. It's not what I want that matters, in fact if my pain and suffering can, in anyway, prevent you from being harmed, then I'm doing my job. I can't take my money with me beyond the grave, but I've learned honor, if deserved, is immortal.

 

[Urwumpe]

Are you certain about that Urwumpe?

As certain as I am about gravity. And again: We are not your therapists. This is no therapy session.

Don't mix this up.