does most of the world really hate america

[Andy44]

I try to get along with folks on the forum. Apart from that, what else can I say? As long as you see people as individuals instead of group identities, and keep a sense of humor, all is cool.

Too bad we all live so far apart. An Orbiter convention would be a blast.

 

[V8Li]

So, you wouldn't even mind if a beautiful french woman would say the same?

:rofl:

Hell ya !!!!!!!

 

[tblaxland]

Too bad we all live so far apart. An Orbiter convention would be a blast.

Ditto that.

 

[Moonwalker]

While the years go by I notice an increase of anti-americanism in Germany but I think this is also the case for many countries all over the world. In my opinion this is caused by US defense and foreign policy basically, especially by the middle east affairs (and I think it started with the Vietnam War already). The White House seems to be a gilded cage. Politicians don't seem to realize or maybe even ignore what "the World" is thinking about the USA. People all over the world definitely don't see the USA as a peacemaker anymore. I think that this is a big problem for the USA.

 

[Ghostrider]

Trying to communicate across that reality with a few paragraphs in an internet forum posting is like trying to empty the ocean with a teaspoon. Stupid. Crazy. Both.

With a teaspoon, yes. With a soup spoon, it's another matter entirely. I know, I did it once. Seen any water in the Ocean of Storms recently?

 

[Piet Barber]

Perspective

It's all about perspective. As an American living in Switzerland, and not spending much time with Americans here in Switzerland, I have a perspective that most Americans don't.

I can't speak about the whole world's perception of America, I can give a glimpse of living among the Swiss, and what they tell me they think of my country. I can only relate what the Bernese and Friourgeoisie tell me that think about America. But to summarize in brief, I don't think they hate America. All of my children go to a local Swiss public school, and were instantly greeted with enthusiasm and warmth by the local children; there was no apparent desire to "beat up the stupid American kids"; and my kids are the only Americans in this school of 500 students.

Instead, I think they roll their eyes and are frustrated with the "leadership" that America has, and the vast majority of them are disappointed that a nation that used to be depended on as the world's moral compass has shown its self to be a greedy oil-thirsty, power-hungry bunch of crazy religious people hell-bent on taking over the world, or welcoming/accelerating the Armageddon. I think they are more disappointed than anything else.

...Not to mention I am continually bombarded with the perception that Americans are fat, SUV driving, wasteful, crap buying, crap-eating, crap manufacturing, uneducated and poorly-perceiving slackers. I get it. I see it. I'm not saying it's right; I can just understand why they hold these opinions. I live here now among the locals and I get it. I read the newspapers (in German) every day, and see the things they see. I am much less likely to ever vote Republican again. (not that I did before). This isn't to say I agree with them, but at least I understand why they see Americans this way.

I see these things, because the Swiss are continually surprised of how UN-American I am. I speak German, I'm taking the time to learn the Swiss German dialect (Absolutely unheard of! Especially considering I'm here only for 2 years total.), I have a pretty good education, and am quite knowledgable about politics and world economy, I don't eat at McDonalds, (although I was pleased to find there is a Hooters in Interlaken), I take the train and bike to work, and for a significant time here in Europe, I didn't even own a car. (It's interesting to be defined by what you're not.)

Very, very few of the people I have talked to outside of the US thought that the Iraq invasion was justified. Most understand the need to invade Afghanistan. What I think it really boils down to is that America is not one nation; it is two, divided by the red states and the blue states. Virginia, where I used to live in the US, was definitely a red state, with the exception of Northern Virginia. We in NoVa would usually say something like "I'm from Northern Virginia, not to be confused with the state of Virginia", because the voting block is much different, the politics, the culture; they are very different. We may be very different, Red staters versus Blue staters -- but the world sees the Red states in action, mostly because of the policies of the sitting president.

In Europe, I don't think there is a perception that half of the country tried very hard not to get "W" elected twice. Most don't understand that "W" has a very low approval rating (the lowest of any sitting president on record). Most don't know about the electoral college process that elects presidents, and they certainly don't know that "W" was elected to his first presidency by a mere 500 votes in one state.

Not really on-topic, but I'll add it anyway: with regard to France, every time I have been there, it has been a pleasurable experience, and I do not think that the French deserve the reputation that Joe-Sixpack, the average American has about them. (I haven't been to Paris yet, so I might have to re-evaluate my opinion when I go there).

I hang my head in shame about the "Freedom Fries" episode back in 2003. If it weren't for the French support during the Revolutionary war, the US would possibly not be in existence today; and most Americans don't know that, or conveintly forget about it, focusing instead on the sacrifice of Normandy. Most Americans also don't know that there are French forces fighting and dying in Afghanistan -- the place where the war matters most.

I can't say I blame the Americans for being so ignorant about world news. Like I said, living abroad has really broadened my horizons and perceptions. The news in the US is absolutely terrible. I called watching the so-called news as "Daily Celebrity Worship" -- the news focuses so much on Paris Hilton, Britney Spears, what this celebrity is doing, which celeb is having a baby with whom, yadda yadda. The answer for this is that the news organizations have realized it is much cheaper to report on this trash that isn't news, than it is to actually pay foreign correspondents to live abroad full time. ( Ted Talks )

To put it simply, in my time here in Europe, I have never sensed that the person I am talking to hates me just because I am an American.

People often ask me what it is like living in the US. To which I answer, "For life in the South, just watch Talledega nights, and Borat, and you're pretty close"
(I'm kidding!)

 

[GregBurch]

People often ask me what it is like living in the US. To which I answer, "For life in the South, just watch Talledega nights, and Borat, and you're pretty close"
(I'm kidding!)

I'm not sure I'll have time to write much more today, so I'm pretty sure I can't do your post justice. But I think you confirm from personal experience what folks who study these things from afar perceive -- that the image of America that is portrayed in popular European media is extremely negative (oil-thirsty, fat, SUV-driving ... etc.). Then, I see you acting to confirm this caricature with the snarky humor at the end. If you have to point to movies to illustrate life in the southern US states, why not Driving Miss Daisy or Fried Green Tomatoes, to name two wonderful Jessica Tandy films?

 

[legios]

What's there to like about an imperialist superpower trying to impose it's rule and way of life on the rest of the world?

How can anyone from Republika Srpska criticize anyone else, considering that their province started a brutal war and was responsible for some of the greatest human right violations this half-century?

And as for the "imperialistic US" imposing its will...? The EU recognized the independence of Boznia from Yugoslavia before the US. And NATO pulled a reluctant US into that war. However I do not see you criticizing the EU.

Say what you will about the US, however you don't see us filling mass graves with our neighbors just because they went to a different church.


As for Urwumpe:
First of all, Germany has been responsible for the fall of the Western Roman Empire, 2 World Wars, and literally hundreds of millions of deaths. So, Germans really don't have a leg to stand on to criticize others.

And the Marshall plan might not have directly rebuilt your countries, however, the influx of money and supplies helped the post-war governments stave off popular communist revolts. And the American Berlin airlift saved Western Berlin from being starved into submission. Every time a German walks outside and doesn't see a GDR flag, they should send an American a dollar.

Anyway, one reason why Germany is not trying to take over the world right now is because they have been castrated...literally. There is a social theory that proclaims that two World Wars killed off all of the most aggressive young German men (and Europeans for that matter) before they were able to reproduce. Even the ones that did reproduce did not survive, and thus their offspring were raised by single moms (who tended to have some pretty anti-war views). These aggressive offspring were considered abhorrant and were shunned in German society.

Thus Germany today is made up of men who are either non-aggressive by nature or who have been taught that aggressiveness is anti-social.




And while the world may or may not hate Americans...it is clear that the moderators do. My orginal post was deleted, but the posts I was responding to were not (e.g. the one from the Bosnian Serb). It is becoming clear to me that like nos amis francais, we Americans should start our own forum where the rules will be applied fairly across the spectrum.

 

[simonpro]

Legios, you do realise that the moderators are American, yeah?

Also, in general, the level of ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding. I'm astounded. So much for the developed world having a top class education system.

that the image of America that is portrayed in popular European media is extremely negative

That's just rubbish. Plain and simple. I don't know what European media you've been reading but it sure as heck isn't anything I, nor any people I know, would be reading.


-----Posted Added-----


Anyway, seeing as no-one is paying attention to anyone else's posts (but instead randomly posting their opinion) I may as well do the same.

People don't hate America, they hate particular Americans (one of whom cleverly fulfilled exists in this thead). George Bush is one of those most here tend to dislike, Clinton (either one) is another. The problem as I see it is that there are a minority of Americans who think that America is the only place to live, and then shout loudly at anyone who disagrees, those guys really piss off people from other countries.
There's nothing wrong with loving one's country, and there's nothing wrong with thinking it's a great place to live - but to go as far as to say that there's nowhere else worth living on the entire planet is both crazy and incredibly annoying.

Unfortunately I suspect that the (very few) europeans who believe all Americans are like this has only met one or two, and was just unlucky who they met.


As a final point, why is there so much bringing up old wars and things? Does anyone actually care that Germany wiped out parts of the Roman empire? Does anyone really mind that Britain and America faught each other several hundred years ago?
I sure as heck don't, without each battle or 'imperialistic' tendancy in the past then we wouldn't have the world we're in now and I quite like this world, to be honest.

(edit) And does anyone else think that the first post in this thread was just an attempt to stir up trouble?

 

[Native Son]

I think hating an entire country just shows how uneducated and irrational a person can be.

Living within the physical boundaries of a nation does not change the fact that you are human just like anyone else. Whether you are a young man from America, Canada, South Korea, Japan, France, etc. does not change the fact that you will face the same problems and experiences everyone in the world faces each day. Whether it may be a personal relationship with someone, trying to get through school, or working at a job you hate, we are more the same than different.

EDIT: Simonpro, your comments resemble much what is flowing through my head.

 

[GregBurch]

Also, in general, the level of ignorance displayed in this thread is astounding. I'm astounded. So much for the developed world having a top class education system.

Simplistic caricatures that are propagated mainly for their utility in domestic politics -- that's what you're seeing. An interesting fact that seems to come out of these discussions is that each side is very sensitive to the negative caricature of their own society that gets publicized on the other side, but seem to be unable to perceive that the same kind of negative caricature gets published in their own society. Simon, with all respect, I think you're not immune to this: You seem to be unaware that the "fat, SUV-driving, gun-crazy, religious-zealot" caricature of Americans really is quite prevalent in Europe. But when an American expresses the "pansy, commie" negative caricature of Europeans, you go thermonuclear.

The problem of these negative caricatures is quite real and, as far as I can see, is quite prevalent on both sides.

 

[Urwumpe]

Let's deal with it in two steps, first on the history, second on your psychological theory:

As for Urwumpe:
First of all, Germany has been responsible for the fall of the Western Roman Empire, 2 World Wars, and literally hundreds of millions of deaths. So, Germans really don't have a leg to stand on to criticize others.

And the Marshall plan might not have directly rebuilt your countries, however, the influx of money and supplies helped the post-war governments stave off popular communist revolts. And the American Berlin airlift saved Western Berlin from being starved into submission. Every time a German walks outside and doesn't see a GDR flag, they should send an American a dollar.

1. Germany is not responsible for the fall of the Western Roman Empire. First of all, there was no Germany around at that time. Second the Germanic mercenaries whose revolt ended the western roman empire had only been able to succeed, because the western roman empire was already weakened from with in - the mercenaries became more powerful as their employers.

2. The first world war is not Germanies blame... at least not in modern political history. That Germany was alone to blame was the political result of the treaty of Versailles, which as most people should know, was mostly meant as revenge by the French for the foundation of the German Empire in Versailles. The real cause was a long phase of international tensions which discharged into the first world war, with the German Emperor (A really stupid guy, before you claim that GWB is stupid, read about him, his father was far wiser) being one major actor in the creation of the tensions.

3. No questions on the second world war. But the number of deaths was not alone done by Germany - Stalins purges also happened during the time (Guess why the losses of human life in the soviet army was so high), Japan acted mostly independend of Germany.

4. Read the article I had already posted: German received less money over the Marshal plan, than it had to pay to the US or the other allies by other treaties. "Made in Germany" had more effects on the German recovery as the Marshal plan.

5. The Berlin airlift was a great venture and great service of allied pilots, but when the Berlin population would have resigned, the whole project would have failed anyway (That's why Clay ensured before the airlift started, that the Berlin population will stand behind the plan). It did save Berlin, and the willpower of Berlin citizens made sure that the west won the first battle of the cold war. When Berlin capitulated, Stalin would have gained more power over Europe and the allies would have lost influence.

6. The USA did not do anything to end the GDR - this happened only because of two factors - The soviet leader Gorbachev did no longer support the GDR government's politics and the economic situation, together with the uprising of the people in the GDR made it impossible to go on. There was no US pressure on the GDR government, and I am sure, any kind of pressure from outside the warsaw pact could have failed the whole venture. What ended the German Division was the will of the people - which many politicians in the last decade already acknowledged.

Anyway, one reason why Germany is not trying to take over the world right now is because they have been castrated...literally. There is a social theory that proclaims that two World Wars killed off all of the most aggressive young German men (and Europeans for that matter) before they were able to reproduce. Even the ones that did reproduce did not survive, and thus their offspring were raised by single moms (who tended to have some pretty anti-war views). These aggressive offspring were considered abhorrant and were shunned in German society.

Thus Germany today is made up of men who are either non-aggressive by nature or who have been taught that aggressiveness is anti-social.

My personal theory is more, that Germany has no longer a autocratic society and the German population a stronger resistance to radical ideas. Germans are not less militaristic as between or before the world wars (And I consider my own family is pretty militaristic considering the fact that we have a pretty high share of soldiers in it). You just can't force Germans to take a military career - like happened in the third realm with Germans being from the childhood trimmed for a military society.

We have currently a problem in the news that the German army runs out of volunteers, but realistically speaking, I doubt that it is a special German problem - Complaints about bad equipment by the soldiers union and a unsure situation in Afghanistan is more the reason behind it. You now need to be really convinced to do the right thing by joining the military, as there are enough reasons for doubts.

Is sure not different in the USA, which have similar problems with getting enough volunteers for the conflicts.

 

[simonpro]

Oh joys, I typed a response to Greg and it didn't post. Stupid internet.

Anyway, in short I can't see why people get worked up over charicatures. They're there for purposes of amusements. I joke with my friends about some of the pickup trucks I saw whilst living in the USA (the stereotype about vehicle sizes is 100% true). Conversely, I know many of my American friends joke about us lot having 35 hour weeks and spending the rest of the time being drunk. I have no problem with them joking about that, and why should I?

What I do have a problem with is people such as Bullethead who seem to believe that Europeans are fundamentally inferior to Americans. That's taking things beyond a joke and just being downright rude, and I'd be saying exactly the same thing if someone posted something equally insulting about Americans.

 

[Urwumpe]

What I do have a problem with is people such as Bullethead who seem to believe that Europeans are fundamentally inferior to Americans. That's taking things beyond a joke and just being downright rude, and I'd be saying exactly the same thing if someone posted something equally insulting about Americans.

Amen!

BTW... in some German companies, it is even common to work only for 32 hours in times of low demand. We call that concept "breathing factory" and it is roughly one of the things which workers hate and love at the same time. It brings them less money, but allows them to keep their job - and when demand rises again, the 4 day work week gets canceled again, without the factory requiring to hire new, possibly untrained workers.

So, the image of Europeans not working much is really not far from the truth, at least when looking at Germans. But you have as well many Germans who work 50 hours per week with only 40 hours getting paid. You just rarely read about them.

 

[Ghostrider]

I'm taking the time to learn the Swiss German dialect (Absolutely unheard of! Especially considering I'm here only for 2 years total.)

Then you're pretty much on par with non-German speaking Swiss. The Swiss German patois (Züridütsch and al) is to Hochdeutsch what the stuff Beowulf was originally written in to modern English - with the difference that one can still make some sense out of Beowulf.

You'd be better off learning Klingon and speaking it backwards, they'll probably understand you then.

 

[Native Son]

The problem of these negative caricatures is quite real and, as far as I can see, is quite prevalent on both sides.

It is prevalent on both sides, but I can only describe the ones I see daily.

WARNING: What I am typing is only just a crude sum of what I experience every day, and by no means I am trying to insult anyone, because for the most part, what I am writing insults Americans the most.

There are Americans that are "pro-American", meaning America is the best place in the world, that if you disagree then that means you are not a true patriot, and that the rest of the world is pretty much wrong and America is always right. China and Russia are evil, France is a bunch of cowards, Germany....well, let's say that their are some people today, without experiencing the 30's and 40's, take WWII personally. And then I have heard some say to me that Hitler was onto something good, just didn't execute his plan correctly. If you are not Christian, then that means your going to hell, so it's pretty much OK to not associate with the non-Christians or even better, mock them and spread lies because, heck, your "saved" and they're not. Muslims are all terrorists, and Jews hate Jesus Christ, so thus both groups are going to hell. English is the official language of America because "that's what our forefathers spoke" and Christianity is should also be nationalized "because the core of our values that our nation are built are Christian and that's American" despite not considering anything about the First Amendment. You have to have a gun to protect yourself, and a pickup truck even though you may not ever need it, but since it's big, heavy, and loud, you are celebrating the American inside you. Parties should be handled with beer kegs and whiskey. Any fancy wine means you are a pansy, and that you can't handle whiskey. And moonshiners are looked up to as national heroes.

Country music is the only appropriate music, because a lot of it is Christian and talks about the simple things of life, such as International Harvesters and cornbread. Also, if you tell one of these people that you don't like country music, they will become angry and tell you that you insulted their entire lifestyle.

I love the perception that "war in Iraq is justified, because we are keeping the terrorists on their soil and not at our homes" even though there is no justification for that perception, for I doubt Al-Quaida in Iraq is going to have a massive invasion fleet and fight a war on our side of the Atlantic. But then if I say that, they would call me a irrational :huh: I just thought I was on their higher level of thinking.

Democrats hate babies and Republicans are just like you and me. You can't vote for a black president or a woman because are American presidents are supposed to be white men. If a black male is elected, then let's cross our fingers that he will be assassinated, before the damage he will cause becomes irreparable. George W Bush isn't the greatest president (Reagan was the best) but he isn't bad. He is just misunderstood and only made fun of because he makes mistakes in his speeches.

Gosh, I could go on and on.

Being an American, I don't really have to think hard on why a lot of people don't like Americans, but even though there is A LOT of Americans that think in such ways, the majority of us don't think like wannabe hilljacks and ask that the world doesn't judge us for the stupidity and ignorance some Americans display.

PS: Don't judge my writing skills by this post alone. I really was just brainstorming.

 

[Thunder Chicken]

Anyway, in short I can't see why people get worked up over charicatures.

The problem is when the caricature becomes the only mental image one group has of those of another group. When you take an entire society with a broad range of education, beliefs, and opinions and attempt to collectively represent it with a single avatar - it may or may not be a flattering avatar, but in either case it misses a lot of information. It may not even represent the average member of such a group.

 

[GregBurch]

It is prevalent on both sides, but I can only describe the ones I see daily.

WARNING: What I am typing is only just a crude sum of what I experience every day, and by no means I am trying to insult anyone, because for the most part, what I am writing insults Americans the most.

I get the impression you buy into this stereotype, which is premised on misconceptions and outright lies. But I'm not sure, maybe you're writing a parody of the stereotype.

 

[SiberianTiger]

How can anyone from Republika Srpska criticize anyone else, considering that their province started a brutal war and was responsible for some of the greatest human right violations this half-century?

And as for the "imperialistic US" imposing its will...? The EU recognized the independence of Boznia from Yugoslavia before the US. And NATO pulled a reluctant US into that war. However I do not see you criticizing the EU.

Say what you will about the US, however you don't see us filling mass graves with our neighbors just because they went to a different church.

What a wonderful place Internet is: people can say each other every t without a risk of getting one's jaw broken in an instant! :dry:

 

[Native Son]

I get the impression you buy into this stereotype, which is premised on misconceptions and outright lies. But I'm not sure, maybe you're writing a parody of the stereotype.

I don't understand what you are saying, sorry. I'll try to clarify. What I wrote was just what I have heard and experienced with some my fellow neighbors. It's quite disturbing and DANGEROUS that people actually seriously advocate some of the stuff I wrote down as examples.