OS WARS MEGA THREAD (Now debating proprietary vs. open-source!)

Bj

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Homegroup works alongside of normal sharing, not in place of it.

Doesn't it? I read on an online forum that homegroup wouldn't work with XP. You had to entirely disable it for XP to share with 7. -which is the annoyance

..which is why I assumed it was homegroup/workgroup thing in the first place, rather than Norton.
 

eveningsky339

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I hated almost everything about Vista, but mostly the whole "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS" window that popped up every time you wanted to copy a file or delete a document or inhale.
 

Woo482

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Assuming you mean User Account Control(UAC), it's pretty easy to disable...
 

Hielor

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Doesn't it? I read on an online forum that homegroup wouldn't work with XP. You had to entirely disable it for XP to share with 7. -which is the annoyance

..which is why I assumed it was homegroup/workgroup thing in the first place, rather than Norton.
Yes, Homegroup is a feature new to Win7. It was not in XP.

You can still do sharing between computers not on Win7 the same way it could always be done, you just wouldn't have the ease of Homegroup.

I did disable it. Vista complained about that every time I booted up.
...then you didn't disable it correctly.
 

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Assuming you mean User Account Control(UAC), it's pretty easy to disable...

Except you either disable it for everything or for nothing, so it's original anti-virus application is entirely useless.

Try downloading and running an application in Vista. Are you sure you want to download? It's an unrecognized (aka not Microsoft.com) source, are you sure you want to launch? Are you sure you want to allow this program to run? Are you sure you want to install this program? :compbash:

I'd stick with XP for the rest of my life, if only Microsoft wasn't bribing game developers to release Vista/7-only games. DirectX 10 only runs on Vista/7 because Microsoft wants it to, not because of any technical limitations of XP.
 

Hielor

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Except you either disable it for everything or for nothing, so it's original anti-virus application is entirely useless.
UAC isn't and never has been intended to serve an anti-virus purpose.

Try downloading and running an application in Vista. Are you sure you want to download? It's an unrecognized (aka not Microsoft.com) source, are you sure you want to launch? Are you sure you want to allow this program to run? Are you sure you want to install this program? :compbash:
Or you could, you know, disable it...

I'd stick with XP for the rest of my life, if only Microsoft wasn't bribing game developers to release Vista/7-only games. DirectX 10 only runs on Vista/7 because Microsoft wants it to, not because of any technical limitations of XP.
Actually, there is a technical limitation. With Vista, Windows moved to a new driver model which allowed fancy things like aero glass and DX10.

XP is 9 years old. Time to move on. In computer years that's forever.

Have you ever actually used Win7? Or are you happy to sit and sling insults at it?
 

Andy44

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Well, I can't speak for Ark, but I'm perfectly happy to sit and sling insults at Win7, but I'll insult just about anything usually.

I agree with him about XP, though. It was working fine. I understand 9 years is a long time, but the pace of change has leveled off a bit in the last few years. The delta between 2005 and 2010 is nowhere near as large as the delta between say, 1995 and 2000.

For the stuff most people use computers for, like Word and email and web browsing, things have been pretty good for a while. And while the gaming capabilities have definitely improved on hardware, the lousy quality of modern games offsets this by substituting lots of graphic for good playability, as was brought up in the "future of sims" thread. It's like CGI and movies; special effects are now cheap, but the movie-makers forgot how to make creative, original movies. Games have gone the same route, with a few notable exceptions.

Meanwhile Orbiter runs horribly on my super-powerful deluxe Vista laptop while it runs fine on my 5-year-old XP laptop with broken USB ports and a failed fan. So like I said, I will just sit in the corner and hate on modern stuff for a few minutes.
 

Hielor

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For the stuff most people use computers for, like Word and email and web browsing, things have been pretty good for a while. And while the gaming capabilities have definitely improved on hardware, the lousy quality of modern games offsets this by substituting lots of graphic for good playability, as was brought up in the "future of sims" thread. It's like CGI and movies; special effects are now cheap, but the movie-makers forgot how to make creative, original movies. Games have gone the same route, with a few notable exceptions.
And if you just use your computer for Word and email and web browsing, not only does it not matter whether or not XP has DX10, it doesn't matter whether you're using XP or Vista or Win7 or Ubuntu or MacOS or your smartphone, because they all do what you need.

Meanwhile Orbiter runs horribly on my super-powerful deluxe Vista laptop while it runs fine on my 5-year-old XP laptop with broken USB ports and a failed fan. So like I said, I will just sit in the corner and hate on modern stuff for a few minutes.
The exact reasons for this situation have been discussed elsewhere on the forum.
 
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Tommy

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I haven't acknowledged or addressed this point because I don't know anything about it. I don't consume that much content, and the content I do consume is apparently immune to this issue because I've never run across it. I don't create content.


I can't justify that, but I don't really know what the protected path does anyway, so I don't really have any idea what you're talking about. Judging by how active torrent sites are, though, it seems quite possible to "steal" content still on Vista or 7.

I'm not talking about stealing content. I don't support that in any way. I'm talking about creating content, and MS's "protected path" (which doesn't actually do what it's supposed to do - prevent stealing) prevents me from doing so.

"Protected Path" means that all audio (and I think all video as well, but I'm a musician - not a cinematographer) MUST go through Window's software mixer. It is an attempt to add hardwired support for software based protection. No Direct Memory Access by the soundcard is allowed. This prevents me from using low latency ASIO drivers which are absolutely essential in multi-track recording AND realtime effects. It also prevents my software from directly communicating with my sound card, or with other audio apps. It also prevents me from recording at 96kz - cutting my raw quality in half and degrading my softwares ability to produce quality audio. Much the same way as a photographer uses a higher resolution than he needs for the final product, being able to sample sounds at higher-than-CD quality allows a much better final product with less artifacts.

I understand, and sympathize with the copyright owners desire to protect their assets, but copyright protection schemes don't work any better than "prohibition" does. Protected Path only works if the media file has the "protected" flag, and no-one has come up with any way to prevent hackers from stripping that flag. Those torrents you spoke of are all files with copyright protection removed. "Protected Path" just doesn't work except "in theory", it's only there as a way for MS to cuddle up to an industry that is desperately clinging to an outdated and unsustainable business plan. It's just a part of MS's publicly acknowledged desire to be the "Sole Entertainment Gateway" (in other words, have a monopoly on all means of electronically delivering and using media, from songs to movies to games, etc.) MS lobbies extensively (and expensively) to get laws passed that will require ALL hardware capable of playing digital media (from your mp3 player to your DVD or Blueray player, to your cable/dish box, Tivo, game console, cell phone, computer, etc) to require an OS that supports "Protected Path", a proprietary tech (essentially meaning that EVERY media device would require a Microsoft OS), and the devices would be physically (ie, hardwired into the board) unable to function without said Microsoft product.

I think that MS hasn't been spanked nearly hard enough yet, and hasn't learned their lesson on trying to cram monopolies down the public throat.

That's why I will never buy another MS product. I have one legal unused copy of XP Pro left - after that I simply won't have Windows at all. If the day comes when Orbiter cannot be run on XP, or on Linux (even if only through Wine, not natively) I will have to give up Orbiting. It doesn't look like it will come to that, thankfully.

DISCLAIMER: This is not another "Orbiter should be Open Source" post. I fully respect martins' choice to use whatever license and development platform he chooses, and am thankful that he allows us to have it.
 

Hielor

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I'm not talking about stealing content. I don't support that in any way. I'm talking about creating content, and MS's "protected path" (which doesn't actually do what it's supposed to do - prevent stealing) prevents me from doing so.

"Protected Path" means that all audio (and I think all video as well, but I'm a musician - not a cinematographer) MUST go through Window's software mixer. It is an attempt to add hardwired support for software based protection. No Direct Memory Access by the soundcard is allowed. This prevents me from using low latency ASIO drivers which are absolutely essential in multi-track recording AND realtime effects. It also prevents my software from directly communicating with my sound card, or with other audio apps. It also prevents me from recording at 96kz - cutting my raw quality in half and degrading my softwares ability to produce quality audio. Much the same way as a photographer uses a higher resolution than he needs for the final product, being able to sample sounds at higher-than-CD quality allows a much better final product with less artifacts.
That sucks. Aren't Macs better for that sort of thing anyway, and have a better selection of software for that purpose? Also, how long has it been since you've looked into solutions for this, or are you still operating on information from 2006, when Vista came out?

Lots of bold claims here. Let's have a look.
I understand, and sympathize with the copyright owners desire to protect their assets, but copyright protection schemes don't work any better than "prohibition" does. Protected Path only works if the media file has the "protected" flag, and no-one has come up with any way to prevent hackers from stripping that flag.
Wait, so, it doesn't work? So what's the problem? If it doesn't work, then you shouldn't have any trouble creating content without that "protected" flag.

it's only there as a way for MS to cuddle up to an industry that is desperately clinging to an outdated and unsustainable business plan. It's just a part of MS's publicly acknowledged desire to be the "Sole Entertainment Gateway" (in other words, have a monopoly on all means of electronically delivering and using media, from songs to movies to games, etc.)
I'd like a source for this, because this sounds a whole lot more like what Apple is doing with iTunes.

MS lobbies extensively (and expensively) to get laws passed that will require ALL hardware capable of playing digital media (from your mp3 player to your DVD or Blueray player, to your cable/dish box, Tivo, game console, cell phone, computer, etc) to require an OS that supports "Protected Path", a proprietary tech (essentially meaning that EVERY media device would require a Microsoft OS), and the devices would be physically (ie, hardwired into the board) unable to function without said Microsoft product.
I think you need a source for this claim too. I find it rather hard to believe that anyone would seriously consider a law requiring all digital media players to run Microsoft software.

I think that MS hasn't been spanked nearly hard enough yet, and hasn't learned their lesson on trying to cram monopolies down the public throat.
Er...sure, okay, whatever.
 
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TSPenguin

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I never had any problems with protected path. I am free to use whatever frequencies and bitrates I wish with, or without, ASIO. You might want to look into your software choice if it is actually using protected path.
Protected path is a measure implemented to allow software being developed for windows that plays protected bluray discs. Last time I checked, it is not used unless specifically enabled by software. When it is used it makes the experience quite miserable.
 

Andy44

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Quote:
Meanwhile Orbiter runs horribly on my super-powerful deluxe Vista laptop while it runs fine on my 5-year-old XP laptop with broken USB ports and a failed fan. So like I said, I will just sit in the corner and hate on modern stuff for a few minutes.
The exact reasons for this situation have been discussed elsewhere on the forum.

Yes, and the conclusion was that there's nothing I can do about it, which is why I hate Vista.
 

Hielor

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Yes, and the conclusion was that there's nothing I can do about it, which is why I hate Vista.
Not true. The conclusion was that you can use Orbiter 2010, which mostly avoids the problem. Better yet, use O2010 with OGLA, which entirely avoids the problem.

My Vista laptop which would slow to a crawl after just a couple minutes on O2006 was able to run OGLA at a pegged 60fps.
 

Andy44

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I thought O2010 still uses GDI, which is the problem?

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

Oh, and I have no idea what "OGLA" means.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

Come to think of it, I don't know what GDI means, either. People around here use these terms, though, and I want to act like I know what I'm talking about, so I pretend to know what they mean and throw them out there casually.
 

Bj

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I thought O2010 still uses GDI, which is the problem?

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

Oh, and I have no idea what "OGLA" means.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

Come to think of it, I don't know what GDI means, either. People around here use these terms, though, and I want to act like I know what I'm talking about, so I pretend to know what they mean and throw them out there casually.


GDI=graphics device interface

OGLA = Orbiter graphics something..something :)
 

Hielor

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I thought O2010 still uses GDI, which is the problem?
GDI is a rather ancient API for 2D drawing. Retrieving a D3D surface as a GDI surface for drawing was, back in 2001, a relatively easy way of doing 2D drawing on a surface in a D3D game, and that's what Orbiter uses for its HUD and MFDs.

With Vista and DX10, hardware support for D3D/GDI interop was dropped, because hardware manufacturers didn't want to have to continue supporting an interface that hardly anyone was using. This means that any MFDs and the HUD drawing requires an extra trip from the CPU to the graphics card.

O2010 allows addons to use an alternate interface to draw MFDs, so GDI isn't required. Come to think of it, though, the built-in DX7 client might use GDI for that, so O2010 alone wouldn't solve the problem. OGLA definitely should, though, and can be obtained from here: http://orbides.1gb.ru/ogla.php Although, to be fair, OGLA has (unrelated) performance issues of its own. Hopefully the DX9 client will make progress sometime...
 

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I think that MS hasn't been spanked nearly hard enough yet, and hasn't learned their lesson on trying to cram monopolies down the public throat.

And who says that... I dunno.... Apple isn't trying to cram monopolies down the public throat? Apple has made it so that it's Operating System will ONLY run on it's hardware, and if you try to emulate said hardware, you are violating the EULA, which means you have to BUY the hardware because you can ONLY run APPLE's OS on APPLE's hardware. You NEED to get apps for your iPhone/iPod touch/iPad through the iTunes store otherwise they WILL NOT WORK

If that isn't trying to cram a monopoly down the public throat then IDK what is!
 

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Wait, so, it doesn't work? So what's the problem? If it doesn't work, then you shouldn't have any trouble creating content without that "protected" flag.

His problem is that piping through the software mixer to check for the protected flag is causing a performance hit, and clobbering the performance of his sound card down to the level of the software mixer.

I'd like a source for this, because this sounds a whole lot more like what Apple is doing with iTunes.

Just because Apple's trying doesn't mean Microsoft can't.

I think you need a source for this claim too. I find it rather hard to believe that anyone would seriously consider a law requiring all digital media players to run Microsoft software.

That's not what Tommy was claiming. His first claim was that there have been attempts made to get laws passed that would require hardware support for DRM, there have indeed been such attempts, such as this one, which, fortunately, failed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBDTPA
http://w2.eff.org/IP/SSSCA_CBDTPA/20020321_s2048_cbdtpa_bill.pdf

His second claim was that Microsoft holds a patent deadlock on software that would run on such hardware, and thus would be the sole benefactor, which is false.

And who says that... I dunno.... Apple isn't trying to cram monopolies down the public throat?

Nobody...

Apple has made it so that it's Operating System will ONLY run on it's hardware, and if you try to emulate said hardware, you are violating the EULA, which means you have to BUY the hardware because you can ONLY run APPLE's OS on APPLE's hardware. You NEED to get apps for your iPhone/iPod touch/iPad through the iTunes store otherwise they WILL NOT WORK

If that isn't trying to cram a monopoly down the public throat then IDK what is!

Apple and Microsoft have both done quite a number of underhanded and even criminal things with regards to monopolies, DRM, etc. Microsoft gets fingers pointed at it more because it has actually been successful at creating a monopoly in the personal computer OS market. Apple, both hardware- and software-wise has only a fairly small fraction of the personal computer market.
 

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Apple and Microsoft have both done quite a number of underhanded and even criminal things with regards to monopolies, DRM, etc. Microsoft gets fingers pointed at it more because it has actually been successful at creating a monopoly in the personal computer OS market. Apple, both hardware- and software-wise has only a fairly small fraction of the personal computer market.

This explains why they are able to do what they are doing. Imagine if Microsoft's next OS only allowed itself to run on say... IBM computers. What do you think would happen?
 
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