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Urwumpe

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TheShuttleExperience

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I'd say, its rather the other way around. Some people who see the earthquake as punishment of God for this rebellious youth....
That's just equal nonsense. In fact one can read those punishment of God arguments a lot in the internet.
 

Urwumpe

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That's just equal nonsense. In fact one can read those punishment of God arguments a lot in the internet.

Well, the fun is: climate caused earthquakes are real. We actually have lot of them in northern and central Europe, because we are STILL slowly reverting back to "normal" after the last ice age over Europe. They are just too weak to make it into the news or hard to tell apart from other sources for earthquakes at the plate borders. Geologists are still discovering new unknown fault lines in Europe that way.

We should also have a lot of those in the Alps, together with climate caused avalanches. Since even dams can cause noticable Earthquakes, sure no surprise.

But in case of this Earthquake in Turkiye, it should be clear, its caused by the fact, that the corresponding fault is similar to the San Andreas fault in the USA and caused major Earthquakes very often, since its motions are forced by the movement of three coontinental plates. Its one of the places with the highest Earthquake risks on Earth.
 

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The tinfoil crowd already had the culprit - the US. Then you get such fun arguments such as other conspiracists going like ' can't have been the US, they can't even go to the moon, let alone cause earthquakes'
 

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The tinfoil crowd already had the culprit - the US. Then you get such fun arguments such as other conspiracists going like ' can't have been the US, they can't even go to the moon, let alone cause earthquakes'

If it was the USA, why Turkiye and not Moscow.....
 

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Well, the fun is: climate caused earthquakes are real. We actually have lot of them in northern and central Europe, because we are STILL slowly reverting back to "normal" after the last ice age over Europe. They are just too weak to make it into the news or hard to tell apart from other sources for earthquakes at the plate borders. Geologists are still discovering new unknown fault lines in Europe that way.

We should also have a lot of those in the Alps, together with climate caused avalanches. Since even dams can cause noticable Earthquakes, sure no surprise.

But in case of this Earthquake in Turkiye, it should be clear, its caused by the fact, that the corresponding fault is similar to the San Andreas fault in the USA and caused major Earthquakes very often, since its motions are forced by the movement of three coontinental plates. Its one of the places with the highest Earthquake risks on Earth.
Yeah. But AFAIK climate caused earthquakes, no, let's say caused by anthropogenic climate change, are more a consideration of potentially happening in the future. So they can't blame anthropogenic climate change yet.

What I don't like about the "last Generation" is their almost religious narrations. They just line up with past movements and their narrations that never became true. Especially the Christianity and its New Testament. Yes, the climate is changing fast. Yes, it's influenced and caused by human activity. Yes, weather patterns will change and people might die and have to move due to more or stronger environmental disasters. But no, this is very likely not the end of Germany and the world or homo Sapiens. People also die in cars, airplanes and ships. They die due to alcohol, drugs, fire, electricity and other manmade stuff and behaviour. Homo sapiens has created his own very artificial world. Almost everything we have and use and like to do is artificial. I am sitting in a 100% artificial environment right now, in front a computer. Even the air I breathe is partly artificial since it includes tiny components that are only there because of human activity and industry. And I'm neither dying, nor going to anytime soon 🤷‍♂️

There are often two things that are supposed to be "natural" by lots of people: food and the weather. But why and how, in a world that is significantly changed by human activity? Wanna have a "natural" planet? Well, that would require measures I don't really want to mention or even imagine...
 

Urwumpe

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Yeah. But AFAIK climate caused earthquakes, no, let's say caused by anthropogenic climate change, are more a consideration of potentially happening in the future. So they can't blame anthropogenic climate change yet.

What I don't like about the "last Generation" is their almost religious narrations.

Well, and thats pretty much all about it. You might easily dismiss them as a doomsday cult, but the annoying thing is: They are still in the realm of science. Also, "We all gonna die" is a tautology, but how we are dying might not be the same. And worst of all, what we really have is our own 1968 generation conflict moment.

FIrst of all: We are already affected. Thats a bloody fact. People already die because of it. If we have increasing numbers of heat related deaths in the summer because of longer and stronger heatwaves here, its not because younger Germans overheat faster than the previous generations or simply explained by demographics. We are plainly working on making a very comfortable climate less bearable.

Of course, we could for now simply focus on adapting. More ACs, less work outdoors, have a break in the noon, change our settlements to adapt to worse flooding events... but that all would still require us to have a completely different style of living. If you think our Autobahn construction sites are working slow, imagine how slow they will be if they can't work during the summer after 12:00 and need to include nightshifts then, which have their own risks to work safety. If you think BEVs will be a strain to the local power grid, imagine people requiring ACs in the summer. And not the ICE grade weak ACs that can only handle 10°C difference. Most apartment blocks in our cities are far to old and adapting them to the inevitable +1.5°C world will already be hard. And now imagine the changes coming at +2.0C: It will be exhausting. Even just modernizing them to allow using district cooling in the summer will be expensive as hell.

And who is going to pay it then? Not the generations that profited from the pollution. I'll turn 45 this year. I am already in the first generation, that had only experienced economic hardships, which my parents never had. We never had a Wirtschaftswunder or similar good phases to build up our own wealth. And we are going to pay for it all. We are slipping into the next major crisis in our generation. All those billionaires, investors and such... they are all living on CO2 money. They are all existing because they had been able to externalize their costs to future generations. And its not just our generations. It will also be the generations in China or India, too, that our rich elites currently like use as distraction from their own theft."As long as China keeps on polluting, I can keep my money". It will be the younger generations in Africa and South America as well. And if the shit hits the fan, these generations will make all those pay, who got their wealth from the "climate sins" of their biologic or financial ancestors. And they are right about it. But first of all, populist movements controlled by billionaires will exploit this sentiment to concentrate more wealth in their pockets. Things will get really ugly until there is nothing left to rescue. People warn about the next big war starting in China. They are likely right. But they will likely never understand, that the unsustainability of our economic system is the catalyst there.

I can really understand all the younger generations to be way more upset about this than I already am, and I follow this for almost 30 years now. I can understand them to expect way more from our politicians and economic leaders than this kind of freak show we see here - hell, even people of my generation are among the clowns. And worst of all: If all the older generations here doesn't stop stealing their wealth and power from the younger generations, what else should happen, than people breaking the laws that are protecting injustice? They would be stupid to respect them. If I want to prevent, that my children inherit a huge heap of debts by their parents, I need to fix this economic injustice now. And not tell my children, that they deserved it and they should enjoy the freedom that increasingly less people have, while they are forced to do, what is needed to mitigate or live with the problems that I didn't fix.
 

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The problem is that the world population continues to grow and therefore demand for ressources and energies continues. It's quite unlikely to prevent this or even influence the world's climate by gluing yourself onto the roadway in a German city and try to prohibit people to do legal things. That's just nonsense. Germany won't "safe the planet".

I wonder how many of them actually deselected natural sciences already in school, although they like to mention climate science all day long :unsure: Recently someone of them told me it is insane to drive a tin can (car) that is "powered by fire"... (while holding a smartphone in her hand) 😂 Having the science behind you, you should also be aware of that the climate is not a coffee machine. And it's really satirical whenever those persons do stand in front of other people or the press and read off their irrational claims from a new smartphone while wearing a shirt that has an "Adidas" logo on it and having the hair green or bright red colorized by using industrial products...

That movement is just contradictory and hypocritical. They don't glue theirselves onto roads because of the war in Ukraine or world hunger or kids that shovel coltan with their bare hands. They do it because they are driven by irrational/exaggerated fears of losing their own little habitat. It's nothing but populism the other way around (people afraid of migration and the end of the occident - same brew but just in a different bottle). George Carlin already explained it years ago as a white liberal bourgeoisie that gives a s**t about the planet (and IMHO just hit the nail).

PS: if you become very old and weak, the chances of dying increase. Climate change might be one additional cause. Without it you might live a little longer. You might also die after a vaccination or due to an influenza.
 

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What I don't like about the "last Generation" is their almost religious narrations. They just line up with past movements and their narrations that never became true. Especially the Christianity and its New Testament.

I've had a personal experience with those due to my then gf deciding to convert to 'new wave' christianity (and also having relatives who did the same earlier). They're basically the one crowd where climate change fatalism coexists with denialism, young earth creationism and flat earth. They're not using it scientifically, so to speak, they just throw it around to scare people. They were dumbfounded to hear that I am quite fatalist, or pessimistic, and I know about climate change, yet I was refusing to join their chorus of 'the end is nigh'. There will be massive changes, that's for sure, but I'm not sure it will be the end of humanity, barring some cataclysmic event or all out nuclear war. Supposedly, and I hope it's the case, we're far enough from the sun that the Venus scenario won't happen, although we'll absolutely thrash the planet otherwise. Waterworld seems a likelier scenario, as the rise is real even now. In my roughly 7 years of living near the atlantic coast, I've seen high tides increasingly break thresholds that hadn't been broken before. And that's on calm weather.


But the brunt of the warming still to come will originate from places like India and China, and they are likely further behind in mentality , making them a 'last generation' in the making , so to speak.. Even in Eastern Europe they're still at the 'moar roads' phase, and I mean turning every bit of green space into lanes wherever possible. There are towns where smog due to the thermal inversions is a huge problem, but BEVs are still a rarity. And it's not even a problem of poverty, it's just the snobbish culture of always getting the biggest gas guzzler possibly.

Despite the changes, I think countries could eventually become way more 'eco' when they realise it's cheaper that way. Especially if stuff like fusion starts being commercially valid. And also when heatwaves and sea level rise will truly become noticeable, as, by then, people will start to take notice
 

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kids that shovel coltan with their bare hands.

Yeah, but you call THEM hypocrites for it. And still use a computer to complain about it. ;)

What is the solution? Not buying coltan mined by child labour. That is the standard. No company will go and buy "best coltan made by 100% child labour". You will simply have greedy middle men in Africa headed by western or western trained criminals, who buy any coltan out of any source. Those middle men don't supply a large western factory, they can never deliver the needed amounts reliably - but guess who in China won't ask questions for even small amounts of coltan and who produces further goods in the supply chain for us.

For getting them out of business, you can only do one thing: Make child labour unprofitable. And how do you do this? We did it by satifying our existential needs, so that we never had to rely on our children for our survival. The growth of our children became our growth. The social laws aimed against socialists in the German Empire did more against child labor as the duty to attend a public school did.
 

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Yeah, but you call THEM hypocrites for it. And still use a computer to complain about it. ;)
I don't complain. It was just an example.

I'm completely aware that my lifestyle does actually harm and kill other beings on the globe (not just humans). I'm the kind of person that actually would exit and shut up instead of complaining. For example, if I decided to not fly anymore I wouldn't tell others. It would be my personal decision. And I would be aware that next summer 100 Chinese will fly instead, when they head out into the world to study in foreign countries 😜 Same applies to smartphones, fast food, driving a car etc.

What is the solution?
To be honest: I don't really know...

There are more than 8 billion individuals on the globe in nearly 200 countries. And most of them want wealth. I don't know what is required to make me think that I could significantly change engineering, economics, industries, politics, social and cultural things etc. on a global scale by gluing myself onto a road in Berlin or Cologne until the police removes me some 20 or 30 minutes later 🤷‍♂️ I think the world is just very complex and depends on dynamic processes one can not just change on purpose.

I only know that going by bike/cargo bike only and using renewable energies only doesn't work for an entire society that consists of more than 80 million individuals and that depends on modern industries. Unless deindustrialisation is the goal.
 

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Despite the changes, I think countries could eventually become way more 'eco' when they realise it's cheaper that way. Especially if stuff like fusion starts being commercially valid. And also when heatwaves and sea level rise will truly become noticeable, as, by then, people will start to take notice
Maybe. Or they might move like mankind always did. I think that the climate has always had a significant influence anyway. AFAIK homo Sapiens does actually eliminate flora and fauna since the Neolithic Age. On the other hand: there had been at least 5 mass extinctions on the globe before. Homo Sapiens did appear nevertheless 🤷‍♂️ But we might be the first species that kills itself on a global scale (or maybe not?).

On the other hand again: this planet was inhabited by microorganisms only, most of the time. We might not be as important as we think. But that's just the moment when my nihilism kicks in 😂😜

I've had a personal experience with those due to my then gf deciding to convert to 'new wave' christianity (and also having relatives who did the same earlier). They're basically the one crowd where climate change fatalism coexists with denialism, young earth creationism and flat earth. They're not using it scientifically, so to speak, they just throw it around to scare people. They were dumbfounded to hear that I am quite fatalist, or pessimistic, and I know about climate change, yet I was refusing to join their chorus of 'the end is nigh'.
I met a few of them. Also online. What I always notice is that they are quite emotional and some are noticeably spiritual and even esoteric. Some are well educated. But there is nobody in my social environment or at work that actually agrees to that doomsday thinking. People seem to be generally annoyed by the last Generation.
 

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Unless deindustrialisation is the goal.

Lets be honest. Any LACK of a solution will be that. Not a controlled change of industry, but a hard crash on rock bottom.

I'd rather talk about controlled transformation of our primitive 19th century style industry into something modern, before the circumstances transform it....
 

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Lets be honest. Any LACK of a solution will be that. Not a controlled change of industry, but a hard crash on rock bottom.

I'd rather talk about controlled transformation of our primitive 19th century style industry into something modern, before the circumstances transform it....
Yeah. But it should be done rationally without reverting back pre-19th century 😜 (yes sounds exaggerated but that's just what some of "them" actually want in one way or another past democratic conventions)
 

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Yeah. But it should be done rationally without reverting back pre-19th century 😜 (yes sounds exaggerated but that's just what some of "them" actually want in one way or another past democratic conventions)

"Some of them" can be applied to any group to select the biggest idiots of them.

Even "Some of them Nobel Prize winners" . ;)

We need an industry. But nothing in the big old book of economics says, that industry has to destroy the planet....
 

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I met a few of them. Also online. What I always notice is that they are quite emotional and some are noticeably spiritual and even esoteric. Some are well educated. But there is nobody in my social environment or at work that actually agrees to that doomsday thinking. People seem to be generally annoyed by the last Generation.
It is surprisingly irrelevant, even for the well educated ones, at least in the crowd I've seen. I mean, emotional and spiritual ,yes, usually. But the biggest flat earther I personally know is a topographer, of all people. Tried to poke around and see why on Earth he fell down the rebbit hole, and apparently he was involved in measurements on a runway extentsion and the boss asked him not to account for curvature, hence the 'switch'. And I tried debunking him for quite a while because he had this sort of aggressive style of posting, that was almost bait to me at the time, because I blamed them for some of the stuff that happened in my personal life. In the end, I proposed we do a parallax measurement (we lived far apart) and he refused, 'so as not to ruin his faith'. That's a thing you'll hear quite often in those circles, including refusing to read certain books, because they ruin faith. It's almost as if they're afraid of the actual truth.

We need an industry. But nothing in the big old book of economics says, that industry has to destroy the planet....

Hopefully it'll get better once we start space mining. At least it won't be destroying THIS planet that much. Although, it depends . If we DO start importing , say, hydrocarbons from Titan, hat might be a way to make the Venus scenario likelier :ROFLMAO:
 
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"Some of them" can be applied to any group to select the biggest idiots of them.

Even "Some of them Nobel Prize winners" . ;)

We need an industry. But nothing in the big old book of economics says, that industry has to destroy the planet....
Well, I don't think our industry kills the planet. In fact the sun does, in about 5 billion years. Or maybe an asteroid before 🤷‍♂️ But life will not exist anymore by then for a long time 😜

The problem is when some of them start to think they have the interpretational sovereignty and the right to bully other people that prefer a different life. If somebody doesn't want to drive cars, fly, eat meat etc. then that's completely fine. I actually don't even care. I won't go that way and prefer my car for shopping instead of a cargo bike. The problems start when a minority tries to annoy the majority. But yes, that applies to other groups as well. Especially populists in general.

When SpaceX launches a rocket, certain individuals in Germany, even in the media, start to discuss the influence on the climate. I just ask myself what's wrong with those people 🤔
 
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