McCain or Obama?

Which Canidate do you want to win the election?

  • McCain

    Votes: 54 36.2%
  • Obama

    Votes: 95 63.8%

  • Total voters
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David

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David wrote and I interject

Your post is nearly unreadable. Please use the system for quoting, and make a coherent response. Your "interjections" seem basically to be the equivalent of a bunch of mutterings, expressing your displeasure, without presenting any meaningful arguments or facts, and with your responses so mixed-in with my statements, as to make it very difficult to distinguish what your responses are. If you prefer to "interject," then at least make distinctions using bold text, or something like that.

Anyway, the testimonial evidence was Linda Tripp's statement to Starr, about what she knew to be going on, as a result of her conversations with Monica Lewinsky, and the documentary evidence was an audiotape of Monica Lewinsky's stating that President Clinton and she (at the urging of President Clinton) intended to lie to the court. Such lying represents a crime, acting to corrupt the court process and the justice system, and any responsible, legal investigator would respond to it with an investigation.

Notably, Linda Tripp was also demonized, for having reported the crime. Also, there was a brief attempt to characterize Monica Lewinsky as having been a "psychotic stalker," but that was even too incredible (as was the Clinton assertion that his relationship with her, was "ministering to a troubled youth").

Starr's "Party" did not select him for the investigation; the U.S. Attorney General (Janet Reno) did.

It is irrelevant that you "favored knob-polishing in such a stressful job;" lying to a court, is a crime and a corruption of the legal process; that it was the President that did it, is even worse, since the purpose for which the Presidency exists, is, among other things, to make sure that people don't do that. Thus, Clinton's behavior was both crime and professional corruption.

That Starr's report was as explicit as it was, is a consequence of his function as an investigator: in order to demonstrate a lie, it is necessary to demonstrate what the truth is, and how it is different from what was stated as being the alleged lie.

The response of Clinton and his political allies, was condemnably "propaganda," particularly because it was false (representing Starr's interest as "prurient," rather than in accordance with his investigation into the President's criminal activities), and because Starr was forbidden by law, from publicly discussing the case, and thereby defending himself from the cynically false representations of what he was doing. Furthermore, the intent was to defend the President, by destroying Starr - by means of falsely characterizing him - with the knowledge that he would be unable to respond with the truth.

As had been Clinton's habit, such as wrt the numerous "bimbo eruptions" during his tenure, his response to criticism, was simply to seek to destroy everyone who troubled him with it.

Whether anyone else engaged in "propaganda," is irrelevant; what is relevant, is the truth of what Clinton did, and what Starr did. Clinton violated law and sought to corrupt the justice system; Starr did his professional job and reported the truth. Clinton furthermore lied about Starr, seeking to destroy a man who previously had held an extraordinarily honorable reputation, and Clinton did this, in order to conceal his own crimes, and in order to save his political fortunes - again cynically seeking to corrupt a legal process (the impeachment), for his own, personal benefit.

BTW, for all that you suppose the events to have been "petty," a court trial is a contest between two parties. Clinton's attempt to corrupt the process of his trial, was an attempt to cheat against his opponent, Paula Jones, in that trial - to deny justice and "due process" to her. Furthermore, the questions that he was asked - about which, he lied - were in accordance with Rules of Evidence that he personally advocated, and that he personally signed into law, as President. Even furthermore, as President, Clinton prosecuted and punished (revocation of professional licenses, and imprisonment, at least) Barbara Battalino, for lying - about her personal sexual behavior - to a court, as a defendant in a sexual harrassment lawsuit. On what basis, then, is it arguably "petty"?

Also btw, it is noteworthy that, in addition to his impeachment, Clinton was fined and disbarred for his conduct, and the entire U.S. Supreme Court refused to attend his State of the Union speech, as an act of protest against his Presidentially corrupt behavior. So, not everyone, apparently, regards his behavior as "petty."


Bush has been denounced by former CIA chiefs former FBI chiefs his “Retired” Generals” even Powell who only stands to gain a level of redemption, via endorsing Obama, and just by his own speeches.
He lied about an issue that has put the nation at risk in the face of a changing world.
There are levels of lies, but is because Bush is protected by "the" War and the supposed “de facto” secrecies surrounding war that he has not been indicted… Where is the inquiry on Bush?
Oh yeah it came out around May or June “pre-war assessment of intelligence…” and it concluded he “the administration” manufactured and misrepresented facts [LIED, just call it what it is] to congress… so not in court but similar. But there is no perjury because they agreed to talk about these issues only while they were not under oath.
Why I wonder… why, why, why?

I don't know what "misrepresented facts" you allege. It is my understanding that investigations have concluded that there is no evidence that Bush "pressured" U.S. intelligence agencies to alter their reports. If you are referring to WMD's, you can note that virtually every noteworthy U.S. politician publicly advocated concern that Saddam Hussein had WMD's, and so opined all U.S. (and several foreign) intelligence agencies. But Bush knew otherwise? How?

Additionally, artillery shells designed to disperse chemical agents, have been reportedly used (as IED's) in Iraq, so clearly there were WMD's, even if not in the quantities that were expected in the absence of inspections.

Also, for fun, here's a quick quiz:
Who stated that Saddam Hussein was an "imminent threat" since having WMD's?

It's perhaps a trick question, since there are (at least) two correct answers (neither of which, is President GW Bush):
1) 2004 Vice-Presidential candidate John Edwards (merely a U.S. Senator, at the time)
2) Then Ranking-Member, now Chairman, of the Senate Intelligence Committee (with the same access to raw intelligence reports as the President), Jay Rockefeller
 
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RisingFury

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Sarah Palin fell for a prank call... and she obviously has no clue who she's talking about... or who the PM of Canada is...

I'm Slovenian so I don't have a say in the American election, but I sure as hell wouldn't vote for McCain just because of Palin.
 

Omhra

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David, now. such fire...
means you must understand completely what I wrote.
To shutdown government... you want dates? go find them its common knowledge, to "spend millions to "investigate how much? every one knows. The details of the sex? also are known... The motives... those are not such known politics eh? And there are two sides to it. Just do not tell me that the pure hearted ethical polices of the GOP drove all this forward.
And it is petty, just look the level of hysteria it is brings by just changing the sterile terms like perjury for no.. no sex..
And David, what is relevant is the cost to the nation from these activities... which was the beginning of the end of any respectability to deep inquiry.
And you act as if we don't pay attention at other hearings and how the republicans bend language to excuse some very questionable activities like torture or posse comitatus... or going to Iraq.
So while the inquiry of Clinton was public and scandalous, Bush's inquiry was almost ignored by the media...

So David, can you tell me if there is a difference. if any, between Bush's lies and Clinton's?

Sorry,
but the GOP uses procedure to pretend to be correct and play the game that as long as you follow the "rules" the law will absolve you of your crimes.
 

David

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YouTube - Sarah Palin Prank Call with 'Nicolas Sarkozy' - Hilarious!


Sarah Palin fell for a prank call... and she obviously has no clue who she's talking about... or who the PM of Canada is...

Golly! Anyway, not to worry, since it is unlikely that a U.S. Vice President would be accessible to "prank calls."

Also, how do you know that she wasn't simply being polite, thinking that Sarkozy was the one who didn't know who the PM of Canada was, or that it was likely a prank call, but possibly legitimate, and best not to hang up on someone claiming to be Sarkozy?
 

GregBurch

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I listened to it this morning and if you actually listen, what you'll hear is Palin basically saying "uh huh ... that's nice ... uh huh ... that's nice ... uh huh ... that's nice ..." A fair listener would also detect in her tone of voice that she's increasingly put into a situation where she doesn't have a clue what the person on the phone is talking about. But she's on guard, so she does what politicians do all the time when confronted with one of the many encounters they have each day with people who don't make any sense as they're talking: She says "uh huh ... that's nice ... uh huh ... that's nice ... uh huh ..." while looking at one of their aides to make the encounter with the crazy person end without the politician having to look mean.

But, hey, everybody already knows she's an idiot, right? So this will just confirm that truth that's already certain. Already knowing this is much easier than actually thinking.
 

joeybigO

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Question? When did Bush lie? The inqury was led by the dems. And the found no wrong doing. Clintons inquiry found him guilty, disbarred him and impeached him. Obviously a GOP doing there.

What are you smoking that makes everyone think that anything will change???
An old wise man told me one time,"nothing changes if nothing changes".
Wave the magic stick around and smell the coffee. Nothing will change in four years mark my words. I will quote this crap to you every state of the union speach.
 

Omhra

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I think McCain picking Palin is an indication of just how stupid they think the American people are.


-----Posted Added-----


Question? When did Bush lie? The inqury was led by the dems. And the found no wrong doing. Clintons inquiry found him guilty, disbarred him and impeached him. Obviously a GOP doing there.

What are you smoking that makes everyone think that anything will change???
An old wise man told me one time,"nothing changes if nothing changes".
Wave the magic stick around and smell the coffee. Nothing will change in four years mark my words. I will quote this crap to you every state of the union speach.

Well, women got the right to vote, slaves were freed and latter got the right to vote... things do change once in a while... Governments some times take too much power and a party wants to be correct when they are wrong people become complacent...
Things can only change...
 

David

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David, now. such fire...
means you must understand completely what I wrote.

No; as I stated, I found it quite difficult to read what you wrote.

The "fire," I suppose, is a result of my displeasure at the fact that a U.S. President was so dishonest and corrupt (and acted to destroy his [and my] fellow citizens, for his own cynical benefit), and yet was (and is) so supported, nevertheless - having been called, by many persons, "the greatest President in U.S. history."

To shutdown government... you want dates? go find them its common knowledge, to "spend millions to "investigate how much? every one knows.

I think that I understood your point: that it was a trivial matter. I think that a dishonest, cynically destructive and corrupt U.S. President is considerably non-trivial.

And it is petty, just look the level of hysteria it is brings by just changing the sterile terms like perjury for no.. no sex..

And just change the term "President, subverting the justice system" into "private sexual behavior," and one can make it as arguably "petty" as one may wish.

what is relevant is the cost to the nation from these activities... which was the beginning of the end of any respectability to deep inquiry.

My point, exactly.

And you act as if we don't pay attention at other hearings and how the republicans bend language to excuse some very questionable activities like torture or posse comitatus... or going to Iraq.
So while the inquiry of Clinton was public and scandalous, Bush's inquiry was almost ignored by the media...

My purpose was to address a particular consideration - about which, these concerns which you state, do not pertain.

can you tell me if there is a difference. if any, between Bush's lies and Clinton's?

Well, at the moment, you have not identified any "Bush's lies." If you are intending to refer to the allegations that "Bush lied" about WMD's, then it will be necessary for you to demonstrate that he made knowingly false statements for the purpose of deception. Since he apparently acted in accordance with the worldwide understanding of professional intelligence agencies, the proposition that he "lied," is not substantiated.

but the GOP uses procedure to pretend to be correct and play the game that as long as you follow the "rules" the law will absolve you of your crimes.

This is, at best, a sweeping generalization; and I don't understand what it asserts, anyway. I am familiar with the proposition that "if you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to worry about," and I recognize that it is an unreliable assertion. But I don't recognize how it pertains to the GOP, or to Clinton, or even to Bush, particularly.
 

GregBurch

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Well, at the moment, you have not identified any "Bush's lies." If you are intending to refer to the allegations that "Bush lied" about WMD's, then it will be necessary for you to demonstrate that he made knowingly false statements for the purpose of deception. Since he apparently acted in accordance with the worldwide understanding of professional intelligence agencies, the proposition that he "lied," is not substantiated.

You're not going to argue about that here, are you? The idea that 1) Iraqi WMDs were the primary and/or sole basis of the war in Iraq and 2) that "Bush lied" about them is so firmly set into people's minds that even bringing the subject up is utterly pointless. Anyone who doesn't accept this as proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is an idiot. Everyone knows that!
 

Andy44

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GregBurch said:
The idea that 1) Iraqi WMDs were the primary and/or sole basis of the war in Iraq...SNIP...is so firmly set into people's minds that even bringing the subject up is utterly pointless. Anyone who doesn't accept this as proven beyond a shadow of a doubt is an idiot.

Well, let's be fair, now Greg. (And I hate to do this because I usually agree with you)Shouldn't it be up to the guys who send the bombers and tanks and do all that killing to prove that that there were WMDs in Iraq? Or are you in the "just trust us" coalition?
 

GregBurch

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Well, let's be fair, now Greg. (And I hate to do this because I usually agree with you)Shouldn't it be up to the guys who send the bombers and tanks and do all that killing to prove that that there were WMDs in Iraq? Or are you in the "just trust us" coalition?

Not at all. Caveat: It's pointless to discuss this, because to do so requires climbing up an impossibly steep hill of set ideas. But the point of my sarcasm was that Iraqi WMD were NOT the only or even the primary justification for the war. That part having been proven to be wrong, then, naturally, in hindsight, that is the rationale that has been singled out by opponents of the war as the sole justification. But that is false, purely and simply false.

Again, though, it's pointless to discuss this, because everyone has decided that existing WMD stockpiles were the reason for the war. It certainly makes everything nice and tidy: Bush lied, people died. End of story.
 

Omhra

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rtsp://video1.c-span.org/project/iraq/iraq070904_report.rm

I suppose it is a pointless argument.

You can also download the document and after you get through all the blackened lines... you get the felling that you have been cheated as to the depth of involvement... so the truth is pretty buried in legal-lingo, but the bulk of the evidence points to an attitude the president is very akin to.
So pretty pointless to argue.
 
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Urwumpe

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How many other justifications of the Iraq war existed?


  • Iraq did not follow UN resolutions pushed by the US immediately. In that case, Israel should have been "freed" by the US about once per year in the last decades. Israel ignored any UN resolution concerning it. Not only the ones created by the many Arabian dominated committees in plain revengism, but also Security Council resolutions.
  • Saddam Hussein supported terrorism. I still wait for the evidence for that claim.
  • Iraq was a dictatorship. Oh what a pity!
  • Iraq was a direct threat to the USA. Yes, it's carrier fleets had been seen on route to Pearl Harbor in 2003.
  • Iraq oppressed Kurds and Shia Muslims. Like about one dozen other Arabian countries.
  • Saddam Hussein attacked the USA verbally. Well, who not?
Finally, there is only one true reason left, why Iraq: It had no WMDs, no intact army, no air superiority and no allies. It was a easy prey for showing some muscles and create a vassal state fitting to the new geopolitical situation.
 

pattersoncr

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Not at all. Caveat: It's pointless to discuss this, because to do so requires climbing up an impossibly steep hill of set ideas. But the point of my sarcasm was that Iraqi WMD were NOT the only or even the primary justification for the war. That part having been proven to be wrong, then, naturally, in hindsight, that is the rationale that has been singled out by opponents of the war as the sole justification. But that is false, purely and simply false.

Again, though, it's pointless to discuss this, because everyone has decided that existing WMD stockpiles were the reason for the war. It certainly makes everything nice and tidy: Bush lied, people died. End of story.

Another point to consider is that despite the fact that there were no massive stockpiles of WMDs, Saddam Hussein was doing everything he could to create the impression that there were. Apparently he was more afraid of being invaded by Iran than the US and believed WMDs were his best deterrant against the Iranians. To quote the movie from which Andy's avatar came;
"Fate it seems is not without a sense of irony."

But you're probably right Greg, it's just too far gone to be discussed rationally.
 
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jedidia

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Yeah, it's November the third, you guys over there better get the machines that count your votes a test run! :weird:
 

Andy44

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The machines? They're aleady pre-programmed. No need to vote. It's all automated these days! [goes to get tin foil hat]
 

Urwumpe

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The machines? They're aleady pre-programmed. No need to vote. It's all automated these days! [goes to get tin foil hat]

You might be surprised how easy it is. Your mobile phone has better protection against intrusion as the voting machines used. :p

The worst problem is, that technologies developed by computer scientists are not used at all for them - and we are talking about cryptographic technologies already as old the Space Shuttle.

So, if you suddely are asked to make a move in a game of chess, instead of McPalin or Obiden, smile. Your vote will at least be not for the wrong candidate.
 

Omhra

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I would like to ask everyone what you think will happen in the first week, first month and first year of who-ever wins this election....
So, please, carefully state your choice of speculative winning (so that some don't get confused) and then say what you think that President will do that is good for the USA and the World.
So fractured is the divide... that I had the problem that when I ask real, live supporters of McCain what they think he will do for the nation and the world they immediately (as if programed like Andy44's machines) start talking about how terrible Obama would be... darn, did I ever not ask about Obama...
Again, state your choice and what you think He will do that is good.
 

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I took more time in this end of campaign to look in their totality rather than by fragments the meetings of J McCain, J Biden, S Palin, B Obama ( in Cleveland ), this last days.

In an environment quite different from much from others, in Peterborough, J McCain, at least in its service (prestation in french), its way of being and of answering, seemed to be become again McCain that some liked in the past, as removed from its phantoms, as removed from the pressures of its team, of the load (with my sense) of her colistière, and, moreover, facing a more mature public, without brass band, flags, cries. Its program is another thing, but it seemed to have lost any crispation, all grins. It was good McCain, yesterday. It was also a good public.
 

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Looks like Big Coffee is stepping in to help the election now, too. :p

 
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